£1.7 billion = £850 million - a victory?

[Deleted member 18588]

"It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices."
CAP certainly is an issue Thatcher famously negotiated a Rebate to this. CAP is 40% of EU Budget - was 80% when the Rebate was negotiated - so UK might actually be getting a better deal now! There is twice as much land devoted to Farming in France as in UK. I'm unconvinced that it inflates food prices. Subsidies normally have the effect of reducing prices.
"It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry."
I believe it has the opposite effect! Without the CFP, fish stocks would have disappeared ages ago - and (mainly) by the British fish industry!
"It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use."
Affect! Affect! Affect! :rant:
It regulates how wasteful the things you can spend money on can be! That's no bad thing imo, and by doing it EU wide, it establishes a level playing field. Look at how much more efficient vehicles motors are now - after similar iterative action.

I'm not saying that everything the EU does is good - that 'banana' definition (if it was actually real) typifies my dislikes of it - or even that it's in UK 'best interests' to be part of it, but there's a lot of dis/mis-information being spouted, from the usual sources!

Whilst I can agree with some of your points there is little or no evidence throughout the world that, in the medium to long term, subsidies reduce prices. Quite the reverse as they protect inefficiency.

Also I have never seen any evidence to suggest that the British fishing industry would have been largely responsible for the exhaustion of fish stocks. The CFP seems to have only benefited those such as the Spanish with their factory ship fleets.

With regard to law-making in other, non-trade areas I would question what role the EU has in that process since, as one who voted in favour in 1975. I was under the impression that I was in favour of a "free trade area", not a quasi federal legislative body.

 

[Foxholer]

Whilst I can agree with some of your points there is little or no evidence throughout the world that, in the medium to long term, subsidies reduce prices. Quite the reverse as they protect inefficiency.

Also I have never seen any evidence to suggest that the British fishing industry would have been largely responsible for the exhaustion of fish stocks. The CFP seems to have only benefited those such as the Spanish with their factory ship fleets.

With regard to law-making in other, non-trade areas I would question what role the EU has in that process since, as one who voted in favour in 1975. I was under the impression that I was in favour of a "free trade area", not a quasi federal legislative body.

Certainly happened in NZ when both Export and Domestic products (primarily Lamb and Butter) were required to be treated 'equally' - the domestic products being subsidised. Prices rose overnight from implementation and never went back down. NZ has always been extremely - perhaps even the most - efficient producer of both products. But I agree, about possibly protecting inefficiencies. Imo, subsidies should be targeted - even if not necessarily for actual production, as biodiversity or 'a better countryside' is a legitimate target that may not be a particular farmer's highest priority.

Fish is a difficult area to debate - as numbers are really guestimates. But the fact that there are far far fewer of both British and Spanish fleet harvesting, compared to 15-20 years ago, and that stocks are still marginal, would indicate that if harvesting had continued at the old rate, then disaster. The 'big bad Spanish factory ship' versus 'nice family British boat' concept is a bit of a myth!

I agree that the EU has changed from EEC days. Whether that's for the better or not is...debatable It certainly, to me, hasn't been a particularly democratic process, but that's actually more a reflection of the arrogance and fears of the UK Governments who signed the various treaties that actually brought about the changes. The one 'definite' ratification point was bottled by the Blair one!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The EU doesn't deal with you as an individual so you will not see the effects directly.

It takes more in the way of your taxes than it gives back.
It sells more products to your country than it purchases from it.
It imposes green laws on how your country generates power.
It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices.
It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry.
It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use.

The list is very long but I don't think you are really interested, are you? If you really are then take some time to study the matter, you should be aware of these things to make a decision.

All the above may or may not be true but in my day-to-day life not one of them has an impact I am bothered about. If all of the above were true and were they to annoy me, and if I carried around resentments on these things - none of which I can do anything about - then I would be a very unhappy and grumpy guy. But I do not see them impacting my daily life - and so I can put up with them and get on with bothering myself about things that I can do something about.

So am I bothered in the slightest about the vacuum cleaner restrictions (you mentioned it). No I am not - not a jot. If the change has any albeit even very minor environmental impact then that's fine by me. My life is not affected at all by not being able to have the most powerful model of cleaner. But hey - if you hate the EU then you'll make it a big deal - it's not.

I agree that your concerns are all significant- and so cometh any EU IN/OUT referendum I will try and become as informed as I can about the benefits/drawbacks.

 

[SocketRocket]

All the above may or may not be true but in my day-to-day life not one of them has an impact I am bothered about. If all of the above were true and were they to annoy me, and if I carried around resentments on these things - none of which I can do anything about - then I would be a very unhappy and grumpy guy. But I do not see them impacting my daily life - and so I can put up with them and get on with bothering myself about things that I can do something about.

So am I bothered in the slightest about the vacuum cleaner restrictions (you mentioned it). No I am not - not a jot. If the change has any albeit even very minor environmental impact then that's fine by me. My life is not affected at all by not being able to have the most powerful model of cleaner. But hey - if you hate the EU then you'll make it a big deal - it's not.

I agree that your concerns are all significant- and so cometh any EU IN/OUT referendum I will try and become as informed as I can about the benefits/drawbacks.

You seemed to have a different view on the Scotland debate.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Short term, targeted subsidies can, I agree, be beneficial in a number of ways. Sadly the CAP does not achieve that and does seem to primarily benefit the "hobby" farmers of France and one or two other states.

The fish stock issues have been around, as you rightly say, for a number of years but then so too have the factory ships. They are certainly not a recent phenomenon.

The lack of democratic referral on the changes in our relationship with Europe is also what concerns me most. If it is the will of the people then I am happy, even if I don't agree. If, however. we are not consulted I get very angry over the presumptuous arrogance of politicians. Right, left or centre; Westminster or Brussels: it makes no difference.

 

[Foxholer]

All the above may or may not be true but in my day-to-day life not one of them has an impact I am bothered about...

That (thoroughly understandable and practical) approach is how both the creep of overbearing bureaucratic invasion of everyday life and the media indoctrination/propaganda machine works - or even depends on!

I'm all in favour of the presence of UKIP and other (seriously) Eurosceptic parties in Brussels/Strasbourg highlight wastage, fraud and daft legislation, but most of what the EU is doing (including the likes of restricting Vacuum cleaners energy consumption, administering Europe wide Fisheries policy etc.) is actually a good thing, and is done with the involvement/approval of all the governments.

...
The lack of democratic referral on the changes in our relationship with Europe is also what concerns me most. If it is the will of the people then I am happy, even if I don't agree. If, however. we are not consulted I get very angry over the presumptuous arrogance of politicians. Right, left or centre; Westminster or Brussels: it makes no difference.

Absolutely with you on that one! Every one of the Treaties that amended the 'original' agreement - Maastricht, Lisbon - and certain other events (like creation of the Constitution) deserved some sort of referendum rather than a 'simple sign-off' by the government of the day!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You seemed to have a different view on the Scotland debate.

My view was that if an independent Scotland wanted to be a member of the EU then that seemed a fair enough route for it to go.

 

[MarkA]

The EU doesn't deal with you as an individual so you will not see the effects directly.

It takes more in the way of your taxes than it gives back.
It sells more products to your country than it purchases from it.
It imposes green laws on how your country generates power.
It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices.
It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry.
It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use.

The list is very long but I don't think you are really interested, are you? If you really are then take some time to study the matter, you should be aware of these things to make a decision.

Couldn't have put it better myself! but then i've been branded a Daily Mail reader.

If people don't think the EU affects them on a daily basis then they are deluded - the EU is there every time you make a cup of tea, you just got to take a little time out to discover why and if you cant be bothered then shame on you, we were originally part of a common market, that market now sells more to us than it buys,saddles us with legislation from unelected politicians and requires us to subsidise all is failing constituent members so the Euro is saved ! but for what good?

 

[SocketRocket]

My view was that if an independent Scotland wanted to be a member of the EU then that seemed a fair enough route for it to go.

What I meant was you were very concerned with matters that didn't affect your daily life in that issue.

 

[SocketRocket]

This link puts the EU Common fisheries Policy into context:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8636371/EUs-Common-Fisheries-Policy-Q-and-A.html

 

[Foxholer]

This link puts the EU Common fisheries Policy into context:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8636371/EUs-Common-Fisheries-Policy-Q-and-A.html

Do keep up!

That report is over 3 years old and there has been considerable reform since then - especially to the ridiculous requirement necessitating dumping of 'non-targetted' fish.

Here's a more recent report - selected at random http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14143606 Still problems, but they are being worked on. A rather more sensible approach - Europe wide - than the Cod Wars etc of earlier times - where there was no consideration for fish stocks - just domonation of fishing grounds. It's actually an example - with some hiccups - of the proper way the EU can be beneficial!

 

[SocketRocket]

The EU have drafted a clarification on the UK's additional levy (Abbreviated version)

View attachment 12852