£1.7 billion = £850 million - a victory?

[SocketRocket]

Could someone explain to me exactly what benefits we as a country receive from out multi billion 'donation' each and every year ?

A whole lot of red tape and a regular kick in the teeth from countries that we have bailed out for too long now.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm not scared. But the scary bit is that someone would contemplate offering 'bribes and sweeteners', either (not) to Japanese companies or from virtually any other country for that matter. BAE certainly got burnt fingers (and hands and arms apparently) doing business that way!As for the rest.. Too many brandies after lunch!

Read what I said again, I made it clear that the Japanese DONT do business that way. Here we go again!

 

[Foxholer]

Read what I said again, I made it clear that the Japanese DONT do business that way. Here we go again!

And I agreed! End of!

The 'scary bit' is that bribery or sweeteners would be considered as a legitimate or necessary way of doing business with anyone! I hope that clarifies things - reading it again, my original post that mentioned 'scary' possibly wasn't totally transparent.

 

[MarkA]

Are you aware of the benefits of UK being in the EU? Difficult to find any good reasons if you aren't aware of benefits or the impact of us not being in it.

You are totally missing the point of my post - we signed up for he benefits of a Common Market NOT a European Union.
We have been dragged in to the situation with the EU by weak politicians who haven't had the balls to let the country decide what they want.
If you want to be ruled by faceless unelected Eurocrats that's fine, but Id rather have a say and a vote about who sets the legislation for the UK

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You are totally missing the point of my post - we signed up for he benefits of a Common Market NOT a European Union.
We have been dragged in to the situation with the EU by weak politicians who haven't had the balls to let the country decide what they want.
If you want to be ruled by faceless unelected Eurocrats that's fine, but Id rather have a say and a vote about who sets the legislation for the UK

My point is that I am wondering if we really understand the benefits that the EU has provided over the years.

 

[MarkA]

The fact is that tying together different countries with different economies and different currencies was doomed to fail- how can the lies of Italy or Portugal be allowed to enjoy the same borrowing rates as Germany or the UK ? Albania is supposed to be next on the list! How is possible to achieve or calculate any form of parity? Basically if you are poor country with a feudal economy the EU is great but consider Europe without Germany - France is on its uppers, Spain isn't a lot better, Portugal , Italy and Greece are on their knees, the former Eastern bloc companies are weak so basically you have a whole lot of nothing tied together by a currency whose constituent elements need constant bailing out by their central bank. Hardly a recipe for stability is it ? A common trading market was a great idea - Currency Union and Federalism a disaster. So what are the benefits?

 

[Ethan]

The fact is that tying together different countries with different economies and different countries was doomed to fail- how can the lies of Italy or Portugal be allowed to enjoy the same borrowing rates as Germany or the UK ? Albania is supposed to be next on the list! Basically if you are poor country with a feudal economy the EU is great but consider Europe without Germany - France is on its uppers, Spain isn't a lot better, Portugal , Italy and Greece are on their knees, the former Eastern bloc companies are weak so basically you have a whole lot of nothing tied together by a currency whose constituent elements need constant bailing out by their central bank. Hardly a recipe for stability is it ? A common trading market was a great idea - Currency Union and Federalism a disaster.

But how can London and Cumbria have the same interest rates given their very different economies, workforces and infrastructure?

 

[Foxholer]

The fact is that tying together different countries with different economies and different currencies was doomed to fail- how can the lies of Italy or Portugal be allowed to enjoy the same borrowing rates as Germany or the UK ? Albania is supposed to be next on the list! How is possible to achieve or calculate any form of parity? Basically if you are poor country with a feudal economy the EU is great but consider Europe without Germany - France is on its uppers, Spain isn't a lot better, Portugal , Italy and Greece are on their knees, the former Eastern bloc companies are weak so basically you have a whole lot of nothing tied together by a currency whose constituent elements need constant bailing out by their central bank. Hardly a recipe for stability is it ? A common trading market was a great idea - Currency Union and Federalism a disaster. So what are the benefits?

Methinks you have been reading too many of the likes of Daily Mail with some of those comments!

It also depends on what you mean by 'Federalism'! The one enshrined in the Maastricht Treaty - with as much devolved to the constituents as possible (subsidiarity was the buzzword) - was actually pretty good imo. But a Supra-National authority that rules that bananas must(or mustn't) be a particular shape needs a bit of a shake-up!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The fact is that tying together different countries with different economies and different currencies was doomed to fail- how can the lies of Italy or Portugal be allowed to enjoy the same borrowing rates as Germany or the UK ? Albania is supposed to be next on the list! How is possible to achieve or calculate any form of parity? Basically if you are poor country with a feudal economy the EU is great but consider Europe without Germany - France is on its uppers, Spain isn't a lot better, Portugal , Italy and Greece are on their knees, the former Eastern bloc companies are weak so basically you have a whole lot of nothing tied together by a currency whose constituent elements need constant bailing out by their central bank. Hardly a recipe for stability is it ? A common trading market was a great idea - Currency Union and Federalism a disaster. So what are the benefits?

That may or may not be true - but my question is simply around whether or not we - the general public - are actually aware what the EU has done for us economically. I cannot say that I do. Because of that I cannot at the moment make a judgement on whether the EU is economically good for us or bad. My inclination is that over the last few years we have been better than most countries in the EU at making the most of what the EU actually offers.

I am also aware that environmentally the EU has forced the UK to up it's game significantly from the 1970s - though of course we do not know what sort of environmental mess we might me in had we not been in the EU. So like so much to do with the EU - that 'what-if' can not be answered because it has been.

 

[SocketRocket]

But how can London and Cumbria have the same interest rates given their very different economies, workforces and infrastructure?

Because they are the same country! Just about every country has diverse regional infrastructure and industry.

He was referring the disparate economies of the countries that make up the EU.

 

[Ethan]

Because they are the same country! Just about every country has diverse regional infrastructure and industry.

He was referring the disparate economies of the countries that make up the EU.

Yes, thanks. I used to live in Carlisle. I realised then, and have not forgotten since, that it is in England.

The point is that if diversity within regional economies in one country is fine, why is it so wrong between different countries. One is simply regional diversity, the other is a monolithic federalist superstate, I suppose?

The counter argument is the diversity in the economies within the EU is a good thing. Not sure what the economic theory is called, but in lay terms it is basically avoiding having too many eggs all in one basket, then if one sector or economic theory starts to fall over, there is balance in the system.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes, thanks. I used to live in Carlisle. I realised then, and have not forgotten since, that it is in England.

The point is that if diversity within regional economies in one country is fine, why is it so wrong between different countries. One is simply regional diversity, the other is a monolithic federalist superstate, I suppose?

The counter argument is the diversity in the economies within the EU is a good thing. Not sure what the economic theory is called, but in lay terms it is basically avoiding having too many eggs all in one basket, then if one sector or economic theory starts to fall over, there is balance in the system.

Ethan. Why the sarcasm? I was trying to point out the differences, not insult your intelligence.

My take on this is that for such a system you must have a Federal Europe as a single super state. Currently you have different countries with their own Governments that have differing policies on many things, one of these that has created problems in the Euro Zone is the ability for each country to lend and spend. The attempts to manage this so far has been poor if not outright disastrous.

I prefer for us to keep out of such an unmanageable project and work towards a free trade area only.

 

[Ethan]

My take on this is that for such a system you must have a Federal Europe as a single super state. Currently you have different countries with their own Governments that have differing policies on many things, one of these that has created problems in the Euro Zone is the ability for each country to lend and spend. The attempts to manage this so far has been poor if not outright disastrous.

I prefer for us to keep out of such an unmanageable project and work towards a free trade area only.

But I think the issue is that the variation in the economies between countries is much less than it is within countries. The UK has a pretty unbalanced economy with London dominating and lots of the rest of the country lagging way behind.

Economic policies differ across Europe, sure, but often not by that much, and the differences allow some experimentation in strategies. There is nothing to stop one country seeing success somewhere else and making changes to replicate it.

The most successful economy in Europe is probably Norway (not in the EU). Since the 80s, Norway has put together a massive Sovereign Fund, basically a huge savings account, of over $800bn, not bad for a country of 5 million. It is expected to reach 1 trillion in a few years. It is based on oil revenues, but carefully managed and wisely invested. if only the UK had discovered oil a few decades back.

http://qz.com/252753/norways-gargantuan-sovereign-wealth-fund-by-the-numbers/

 

[SocketRocket]

But I think the issue is that the variation in the economies between countries is much less than it is within countries. The UK has a pretty unbalanced economy with London dominating and lots of the rest of the country lagging way behind.

Economic policies differ across Europe, sure, but often not by that much, and the differences allow some experimentation in strategies. There is nothing to stop one country seeing success somewhere else and making changes to replicate it.

The most successful economy in Europe is probably Norway (not in the EU). Since the 80s, Norway has put together a massive Sovereign Fund, basically a huge savings account, of over $800bn, not bad for a country of 5 million. It is expected to reach 1 trillion in a few years. It is based on oil revenues, but carefully managed and wisely invested. if only the UK had discovered oil a few decades back.

http://qz.com/252753/norways-gargantuan-sovereign-wealth-fund-by-the-numbers/

If Norway had 60 million (and rising fast) people they would probably be snowed under in debt like the UK.

History has shown us that large confederations of countries always fail due to their bureaucracy smothering enterprise.

 

[Tashyboy]

I only have one question and it is the same question as many others are asking. One that never really seems to be answered.

what is the benefits to me in being a part of the EU.

Building a factory in Northampton to make butties and then targeting Hungarian workers. Where is the benefit in that to me. Is me butty cheaper and by how much.

i get the feeling that over the last month or so the penny is slowly dropping with Mr Cameron but not yet with Ed or Nick.

however is that to do with listening to both sides of an EU argument which includes immigration, or this 1.7 billion bill the straw that broke the camels back re him and Europe.

 

[SocketRocket]

I only have one question and it is the same question as many others are asking. One that never really seems to be answered.

what is the benefits to me in being a part of the EU.

Building a factory in Northampton to make butties and then targeting Hungarian workers. Where is the benefit in that to me. Is me butty cheaper and by how much.

i get the feeling that over the last month or so the penny is slowly dropping with Mr Cameron but not yet with Ed or Nick.

however is that to do with listening to both sides of an EU argument which includes immigration, or this 1.7 billion bill the straw that broke the camels back re him and Europe.

Your question is something only you can answer as its asking about your personal relationship with the EU. I can only look at the situation overall and from my own perspective I detest the way it attempts to smother us and encroach on ever aspect of our lives.

The Sarnie factory is another issue. Thats a problem not of immigration but of our welfare system that allows people to languish on benefits rather than get off their backsides and do a days work.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your question is something only you can answer as its asking about your personal relationship with the EU. I can only look at the situation overall and from my own perspective I detest the way it attempts to smother us and encroach on ever aspect of our lives.

The Sarnie factory is another issue. Thats a problem not of immigration but of our welfare system that allows people to languish on benefits rather than get off their backsides and do a days work.

To be honest I do not notice the EU impacting on my life one iota. It may well do so but not in any way that bothers me. Now someone tell me how it does?

 

[SocketRocket]

To be honest I do not notice the EU impacting on my life one iota. It may well do so but not in any way that bothers me. Now someone tell me how it does?

The EU doesn't deal with you as an individual so you will not see the effects directly.

It takes more in the way of your taxes than it gives back.
It sells more products to your country than it purchases from it.
It imposes green laws on how your country generates power.
It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices.
It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry.
It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use.

The list is very long but I don't think you are really interested, are you? If you really are then take some time to study the matter, you should be aware of these things to make a decision.

 

[Foxholer]

The EU doesn't deal with you as an individual so you will not see the effects directly.

It takes more in the way of your taxes than it gives back.
It sells more products to your country than it purchases from it.
It imposes green laws on how your country generates power.
It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices.
It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry.
It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use.

The list is very long but I don't think you are really interested, are you? If you really are then take some time to study the matter, you should be aware of these things to make a decision.

To 'counter' those points....

"It takes more in the way of your taxes than it gives back."
That's no different to what happens with taxes in individual countries - 'wealthier' folk pay more in than they receive back.
"It sells more products to your country than it purchases from it."
Notwithstanding the fact that UK is 'part of EU', this is really a non-argument - though having an overall trade imbalance is most certainly a big issue!
"It imposes green laws on how your country generates power."
No bad thing imo. And there's agreement, planning and fore-warning involved.
"It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices."
CAP certainly is an issue Thatcher famously negotiated a Rebate to this. CAP is 40% of EU Budget - was 80% when the Rebate was negotiated - so UK might actually be getting a better deal now! There is twice as much land devoted to Farming in France as in UK. I'm unconvinced that it inflates food prices. Subsidies normally have the effect of reducing prices.
"It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry."
I believe it has the opposite effect! Without the CFP, fish stocks would have disappeared ages ago - and (mainly) by the British fish industry!
"It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use."
Affect! Affect! Affect! :rant:
It regulates how wasteful the things you can spend money on can be! That's no bad thing imo, and by doing it EU wide, it establishes a level playing field. Look at how much more efficient vehicles motors are now - after similar iterative action.

I'm not saying that everything the EU does is good - that 'banana' definition (if it was actually real) typifies my dislikes of it - or even that it's in UK 'best interests' to be part of it, but there's a lot of dis/mis-information being spouted, from the usual sources!

 

[SocketRocket]

To 'counter' those points....

"It takes more in the way of your taxes than it gives back."
That's no different to what happens with taxes in individual countries - 'wealthier' folk pay more in than they receive back.
"It sells more products to your country than it purchases from it."
Notwithstanding the fact that UK is 'part of EU', this is really a non-argument - though having an overall trade imbalance is most certainly a big issue!
"It imposes green laws on how your country generates power."
No bad thing imo. And there's agreement, planning and fore-warning involved.
"It has a common agricultural policy that takes your money and gives it in subsidies to hobby Farmers in France and Germany to inflate food prices."
CAP certainly is an issue Thatcher famously negotiated a Rebate to this. CAP is 40% of EU Budget - was 80% when the Rebate was negotiated - so UK might actually be getting a better deal now! There is twice as much land devoted to Farming in France as in UK. I'm unconvinced that it inflates food prices. Subsidies normally have the effect of reducing prices.
"It has a common fisheries policy that has allowed foreign factory ships to deplete our fish stocks and use vast amounts of our allocated quotas, thus decimating the British fish industry."
I believe it has the opposite effect! Without the CFP, fish stocks would have disappeared ages ago - and (mainly) by the British fish industry!
"It imposes laws that effect what you can and cannot spend your money on, like the recent ruling on what vacuum cleaner you may use."
Affect! Affect! Affect! :rant:
It regulates how wasteful the things you can spend money on can be! That's no bad thing imo, and by doing it EU wide, it establishes a level playing field. Look at how much more efficient vehicles motors are now - after similar iterative action.

I'm not saying that everything the EU does is good - that 'banana' definition (if it was actually real) typifies my dislikes of it - or even that it's in UK 'best interests' to be part of it, but there's a lot of dis/mis-information being spouted, from the usual sources!

What a surprise!