Wrong score for a hole R3.3b

[bunkerblaster]

3.3b if your returned score for a hole is lower than your actual score or no score is returned for a hole you are disqualified.

Its a 3 player group, individual comp. The three players swap cards.
Par 3: Marker scores 6 for his Player. The Player records 7 as his score for this hole acting as the Marker for the third player. The mistake is not corrected and the card is signed and posted.
Decision: the Player is disqualified Rule 3.3b as above.
Question: Is the decision any different in a Stableford comp as the Player score no points with a 6 or a 7?

 

[rulie]

What did the player actually score on the hole?

 

[BillyTheFish777]

From Rule 21.1 which covers Stableford competitions

(2) Score Entered for Each Hole. To meet the requirements in Rule 3.3b for entering hole scores on the scorecard:

• If Hole Is Completed by Holing Out.
  • When Score Would Result in Points Being Awarded. The scorecard must show the actual score.
  • When Score Would Result in Zero Points. The scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in zero points being awarded.
• If Hole Is Completed Without Holing Out. If the player does not hole out under the Rules, the scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in zero points being awarded.

As neither score resulted in any points being awarded, I think the scorecard is allowed under the first bullet point and second sub-bullet point.

 

[rulefan]

When Score Would Result in Zero Points. The scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in zero points being awarded.

 

[bunkerblaster]

BTF Excellent. Thank You.
Therefore in the situation in the O.P. In stroke play the Player is DQd. In Stableford he is not DQd because the score the Player signed for did not result in any points being awarded. If either of the two scores would have resulted in Stableford points being awarded the Player is DQd.

Question: Administration. When I input the score into the ISV software, the Player has signed for a 6, but he recorded a 7 when acting as Marker. What score is recorded for handicapping purposes?

 

[rulefan]

BTF Excellent. Thank You.
Therefore in the situation in the O.P. In stroke play the Player is DQd. In Stableford he is not DQd because the score the Player signed for did not result in any points being awarded. If either of the two scores would have resulted in Stableford points being awarded the Player is DQd.

Question: Administration. When I input the score into the ISV software, the Player has signed for a 6, but he recorded a 7 when acting as Marker. What score is recorded for handicapping purposes?

As the signed card showed 6 that's what should be recorded but it doesn't really matter as he will be allocated net double bogey anyway.

 

[bunkerblaster]

Thanks everyone. This for me has opened up a huge can of worms, they just keep emerging the more I discuss this with members of my H.C. I will kick it off tomorrow. Here is a clue, see post #2.

 

[jim8flog]

BTF Excellent. Thank You.
Therefore in the situation in the O.P. In stroke play the Player is DQd. In Stableford he is not DQd because the score the Player signed for did not result in any points being awarded. If either of the two scores would have resulted in Stableford points being awarded the Player is DQd.

Question: Administration. When I input the score into the ISV software, the Player has signed for a 6, but he recorded a 7 when acting as Marker. What score is recorded for handicapping purposes?

I would ask the player to confirm the score as you do not know what is correct, the score on his card or the score he recorded in the markers column on the card he was the marker for and if possible the marker for his card. It is not safe to assume which is correct.

 

[rulie]

I would ask the player to confirm the score as you do not know what is correct, the score on his card or the score he recorded in the markers column on the card he was the marker for and if possible the marker for his card. It is not safe to assume which is correct.

I would further ask about how the difference came to be noticed and how was it resolved? When I'm a marker, I obliterate my score on the other player's card, if I record my score at all.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks everyone. This for me has opened up a huge can of worms, they just keep emerging the more I discuss this with members of my H.C. I will kick it off tomorrow. Here is a clue, see post #2.

Are you suggesting his score was not 6 or 7 or that he got a stroke?

 

[bunkerblaster]

Replying to posts #8,9,10. There were three incorrect scores entered in a Stableford comp. Only gross scores were entered on the card.

Markers score on Players card 5 6 7
Par for the hole 3 3 4
players score as marker 3 7 6
for the 3rd in the group
I have contacted the Player, the correct scores were 3,7,6. He admits signing for an incorrect score and said he should be DQd. I have explained the Rules state he should not be DQd (see thread above) and he was not DQd.

One of my fellow HC members suggested the Marker was at fault and should be DQd, clearly wrong there is no comeback on the Marker for his error. His error, but under the Rules it is the Players error.
Another HC member said "How do you know the signed for score is wrong" This is correct, so if we all use rulie`s system and obliterate or do not even keep the Players score when acting as his marker, DQs under Rule 3.3b are non existent,
the score as signed for by the Player must be correct and entered on the system as recorded on the Players card.

 

[Colin L]

What's the difference between

I would ask the player to confirm the score as you do not know what is correct, the score on his card or the score he recorded in the markers column on the card he was the marker for and if possible the marker for his card. It is not safe to assume which is correct.

Replying to posts #8,9,10. There were three incorrect scores entered in a Stableford comp. Only gross scores were entered on the card.

Markers score on Players card 5 6 7
Par for the hole 3 3 4
players score as marker 3 7 6
for the 3rd in the group
I have contacted the Player, the correct scores were 3,7,6. He admits signing for an incorrect score and said he should be DQd. I have explained the Rules state he should not be DQd (see thread above) and he was not DQd.

One of my fellow HC members suggested the Marker was at fault and should be DQd, clearly wrong there is no comeback on the Marker for his error. His error, but under the Rules it is the Players error.
Another HC member said "How do you know the signed for score is wrong" This is correct, so if we all use rulie`s system and obliterate or do not even keep the Players score when acting as his marker, DQs under Rule 3.3b are non existent,
the score as signed for by the Player must be correct and entered on the system as recorded on the Players card.

Entering your score on the card you are marking has no relevance under the Rules. Only the gross scores entered on your card and certified by you and your marker are taken account of. But that doesn't mean that DQs under 3.3b are non-existent. Scoring errors can be brought to light in different ways including by the player himself or herself.

 

[rulie]

I agree with Colin's post above. The R&A use the term "recorder" to refer to those that "record" the scores returned on the players' cards. That's their short job description. The player is responsible for 18 individual hole scores and two signatures on his scorecard. The recorder/committee is responsible for additions, handicaps, Stableford points (if applicable). This "cross-checking" of what is on the player's card compared to what might be on another player's card is not part of the recorder/committee's role and is not required.

 

[bunkerblaster]

Thanks. I would go on to insert into your statement: " The player is responsible for 18 individual hole scores (they do not have to be accurate scores) and two signatures on his scorecard" As can clearly be seen in the example above the player submitted incorrect scores on three holes and both he and the marker signed them off as being accurate. Again for the reasons set out above the player was not DQd, a correct decision under the Rules.
In this instance the errors did not go in the players favour. In other circumstances the marker and players failure could lead to lower scores being recorded than was actually the case with the Recorder having no means of verifying the returned score was accurate.
This to me is a cheats and incompetents charter and is totally unacceptable. - But all perfectly acceptable under the current Rules. They have to change.

 

[bunkerblaster]

I will write your reply for you: "Good luck with that".