What can I improve in my swing?

[Jimaroid]

Here's a video of my swing with a 7 iron. I've always been able to swing a club quite smoothly but my errant shots tend to be a push fade. I've never had a lesson and I'm pretty happy with how I'm playing, I'd really like to improve my ball striking as I don't feel like I hit down or through the ball well enough. But I'm not sure if that's something to worry about? Is there something more obvious or fundamental I should think about working on first?


[video=youtube_share;EmDTZD67pr4]http://youtu.be/EmDTZD67pr4[/video]

 

[virtuocity]

Not to hi-jack, but in the interests of sharing knowledge, I'm also interested in what the experts think about Jimaroid's wrist hinging in the swing. On the DTL video, it doesn't seem to fully hinge and "runs off" at the top of the swing and then releases immediately in the downswing.

I'd imagine that this would encourage flipping and loss of power / good contact etc?

Look at the picture:



Is it desirable to get the club and arm angle at 90 degrees by this point? e.g:

 

[Maninblack4612]

This is basically a one plane swing and there should be no "wrist hinge" looks fine the way it is. You stand too upright, move further from the ball & bend from the hips (look at Justin Rose / Luke Donald) hands should be under the chin at address. Read "The Plane Truth" by Jim Hardy. ​Don't hinge the wrists!

 

[Jimaroid]

No worries about hijacking, they're interesting comments on wrist hinge. One thing I consciously do is not hinge my wrists in my take-away as I lose control later in the swing if I do. I also used to have a bad habit of rolling my wrists in the take away and that caused all sorts of problems so what you see now is my thoughts on turning my shoulders without being wristy.

The upright stance is an interesting point for me as I used to stand further from the ball and bend more from the hips as suggested but I found that led to me making a very flat swing and I would push everything to the right. Becoming more upright in the last year has given me better control of the ball. Maybe I've just gone too far from one extreme to the other?

I'll put The Plane Truth next on my reading list, thanks!

 

[DaveM]

Matt Kuchar Analysis (2009) by Chris O'Connell - …: http://youtu.be/g-fU_Emoh4E

This is a one plane swing. The ops swing is more like Langers a two plane swing. Or that's how it looks to me.

 

[Maninblack4612]

I would call this a one plane swing. If he stood further away he would swing more round the body and the arms & shoulders would be on approximately the same plane, the arms can be above the shoulders a little and still be one plane. There's no excessive wrist hingeing which is a feature of the two plane swing. Kuchar is an extreme example due to his long arms and, I suspect, short legs.

 

[RGDave]

Is it desirable to get the club and arm angle at 90 degrees by this point? e.g:

View attachment 11879View attachment 11880

This is what I have been working on. Whether or not it is right for the OP is not a question I can answer.

 

[the_coach]

It all depends on where you are in your game, score-wise. Are you getting the ball to target mostly. Where are the weak areas. Distance, accuracy, consistency, long game, short game, FIR, GIR. from 85 yards in?

Looking at that swing in isolation there probably would be things to work on, but if you're shooting under say 80 gross, is it worth dismantling to some extent what you have, have you the time & the inclination needed to put the swing back together with the changes that would be needed?

To get a better strike on the ball would require changing some of the things you do now. From grip to set-up, stance & posture plus motion.

Just generally you don't have a one plane swing. No-one really swings the club on one plane.

Any decent swing requires a proper & correct left wrist set otherwise no-one would hit the ball far enough to play well.

It's anatomically impossible to have too much of a correct left wrist set 'upwards' on the snuff box joint. A so called 2 plane swing, in reality everyones swing is a two plane swing of differing degrees, there's no difference in a good correct wrist set between a flatter to a higher swing plane motion.

Kuchar for instance when his left arm is 1st horizontal to the ground has a set with the shaft that's a little ways more than 90º.

He takes the club shaft back under his original address plane (the only player on Tour who does this) at the top the angle of his left arm is near but not on his shoulder plane, his right arm so elbow is way behind his back, he's even here slightly increased the angle between his left arm/wrist & club shaft.

Then he moves the club out & over the plane as a first move down (a first move down most handicap players are trying to get rid of) to enable him to get back with his elbow in front of this right hip so gets back to his address shaft plane through impact, his hands remarkably going right back through the space they occupied at address.
Something given the complicated move & the timing needed to get back to that good impact position he's able to do really well. Not a good way for ordinary mortals to go, they would be in big trouble trying to emulate this. some folks may think thats what they are doing but I'd be really surprised if they were doing something that was anywhere near this swing motion in reality.

 

[Jimaroid]

It all depends on where you are in your game, score-wise. Are you getting the ball to target mostly. Where are the weak areas. Distance, accuracy, consistency, long game, short game, FIR, GIR. from 85 yards in?

Score wise I'm hitting anything from 73 to 83 gross at the moment. I'm about 50% for FIR with my driver (it fluctuates a lot though, consistency is a problem there) so I'm using my 3 wood off the tee more often to keep me out of trouble. I'm not looking for distance, I don't think I can be a big hitter so consistency and accuracy are what I'd like to improve upon, especially in the mid irons. I think I can score regularly below 75 and that's what I want to aim for next year.

The things that have cost me a lot of shots recently is GIR due to a poorly hit mid iron as a 2nd shot in. I'll either hit the ground before the ball and duff the ball short, or under similar circumstances, hit the ball really cleanly and see it end through the back of the green. Accuracy problems always seem to be down to pushing the ball to the right, I don't feel good aiming further left to counteract that as a well struck ball just starts and ends in the wrong direction to the left in that case. So without further rambling, improving consistency is what I think I need to focus on.

 

[RGDave]

It's anatomically impossible to have too much of a correct left wrist set 'upwards' on the snuff box joint.

Any decent swing requires a proper & correct left wrist set otherwise no-one would hit the ball far enough to play well.

This is pretty much what I discussed at my lesson. I had no wrist hinge, set the club crazy-flat and then turned to disaster. Top of the swing, my body was pulled way out of position and my left arm collapsed completely.

On the way down, I was doing a great job of staying down and behind, but hands in front (thanks, Coach) and getting a pretty sweet contact, but no zip at all.

2,000 balls later, I'm 15% up on distance, more centred over the ball and playing back in the 70s without anything longer than a 5 wood... and taking two less clubs at times.

 

[the_coach]

Score wise I'm hitting anything from 73 to 83 gross at the moment. I'm about 50% for FIR with my driver (it fluctuates a lot though, consistency is a problem there) so I'm using my 3 wood off the tee more often to keep me out of trouble. I'm not looking for distance, I don't think I can be a big hitter so consistency and accuracy are what I'd like to improve upon, especially in the mid irons. I think I can score regularly below 75 and that's what I want to aim for next year.

The things that have cost me a lot of shots recently is GIR due to a poorly hit mid iron as a 2nd shot in. I'll either hit the ground before the ball and duff the ball short, or under similar circumstances, hit the ball really cleanly and see it end through the back of the green. Accuracy problems always seem to be down to pushing the ball to the right, I don't feel good aiming further left to counteract that as a well struck ball just starts and ends in the wrong direction to the left in that case. So without further rambling, improving consistency is what I think I need to focus on.

Then what you'd first need to look at given the problems/issues you mention, would be set-up, stance.

Too upright here, which is an issue with the ball/sometimes ground contact your getting, possible some thins too.

Hands because you're to upright are too near the body, always going to be difficult to return the swing through impact with the hands in a similar position, going to push out some from you body as your miss if anything a bit off, so your issue around the push, push cut maybe to push slice with the straighter face driver, as a more usual miss.

Any optimum efficient swing is looking to get the hands (looking from DTL) going back as near to there were at address, as this will ensure the club shaft is returning through impact on as near as it was at the address angle as possible.
If achieved, or very close to, this would mean the swing 'circle' has operated during the motion on as near a perfect swing plane for the club that could be possible, so you'd be able then to move it at the optimum speed, plane & path to return 'square' through impact, then return left again back up the optimum plane, without any need for manipulation or compensatory moves -these will only slow the club down plus more have to heavily rely on timing of these compensatory moves to square the face up

So generally you would need to look at posture, butt out a little ways beyond the heel line, both your forward spine angle more so your chest is looking at the ball not straight out over the top of the ball as it is now. This gives you room for a vertical arm hang leaving about a right fists+thumb width between your hands & your thighs.

So you'll be standing what will feel like to you a good way from the ball, in reality if you check say Rosey/McIlroy at address you'll see you won't really be 'far' away at all will just feel that way because of what your used to.

Given the club in the vid, just a stance that's a bit wider at set-up to give you a better solid base (knees, less left knee action) to turn the body pivot over so you can coil with a little more resistance from the legs going back.

This would give you a better place from the top to swing down & through impact with weight left, so better able to keep chest more over the ball that way you can cover the ball better to get the ball contact you're looking for, hands leading a forwards leaning shaft for that sound strike & flight.

Grip would be at some time something to look at, as thats going to hinder (as it is now) getting & keeping the correct right hand/wrist angle to & through impact, with the right thumb in the position it is now down the center of the handle, would need to be at the left side of the handle pointing to the trigger finger.

(if you can do this with a good PGA pro near you it would help you a great deal, especially in a little quicker outcome than experimenting yourself, but of course that's up to you)

 

[G1BB0]

it cant be that bad off 12 ffs!

A lot on here would bite your arm off (me included)

 

[RGDave]

I'm not looking for distance, I don't think I can be a big hitter so consistency and accuracy are what I'd like to improve upon, especially in the mid irons. I think I can score regularly below 75 and that's what I want to aim for next year.

I know this forum area should be out of bounds to me BUT, never dismiss a bit more distance. I said "forget distance" for the last 6-7 years and now I have found some (enough to get me into the average, rather than short category) it has helped a great deal. Getting closer to those long par 4s (hopefully for a 1-putt) and pitching onto par 5s (rather than hitting full shots) is really useful and great for the confidence.

unless you are already bombing it, of course.

I've not dared to use my driver yet, but I can see it happening soon.

 

[Jimaroid]

Cheers coach, some good things to think about there. I've not been happy with my grip for a while and it's interesting you've picked up on that as a change to think about later.

One thing that's bothered me about my stance in the past is that, being a relatively short 5'6", I feel like a more leant-over posture gives me less room for the club to clear my body and swing through the ball. I will try it out again though, my irons are fitted to be 1/2" short and 1* flat so in theory they are right for more spine angle.

Dave - I'm nowhere near bombing it, at best I can't hit anything further than 250 yards and my average is obviously shorter. I just think that in terms of scoring improvement distance isn't the biggest issue at my current level.

 

[the_coach]

Cheers coach, some good things to think about there. I've not been happy with my grip for a while and it's interesting you've picked up on that as a change to think about later.

One thing that's bothered me about my stance in the past is that, being a relatively short 5'6", I feel like a more leant-over posture gives me less room for the club to clear my body and swing through the ball. I will try it out again though, my irons are fitted to be 1/2" short and 1* flat so in theory they are right for more spine angle.

Really your grip will have to change for a number of reasons, if you felt you could look at it at the same time as a posture & stance change then, all good, but although in terms of degrees the forward spine lean, butt back some over the heel line, distance between the hands & the thighs & then because of all this the ball further away.

None of that really is a huge change in actuality in terms of degrees or distance from ball, but it is going to feel very very strange at first, so thought the grip as well might be too much.

Here's a link to a good neutral grip left & right hand for you to look at.

Left H: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMLpg38gEJE

Right H: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kG19zHrdiY&list=UUbY9OC4bMmAmqlcWhmQE3dQ

 

[the_coach]

Posture is not about bending forwards for just bending forwards sake, understand what your saying about height, but being too upright is giving you the contact issues. Whatever height a golfer is it's about having the spine at the right natural angle for your height to allow correct rotation around the spine both back & through. Doing the drill in this vid should help you find that.

While also putting the golfer in a position that the arms can hang vertically in a tension free natural hang that also gives you room between the hands & the thighs, so there's space to get back to & through impact.

So doing the drill in this vid should help with the spine angle.

Then was as you see you drop the club down to take your grip your arms should be able to hang vertically, when you do this if you then take your right hand off the grip there should be space for the right hand as a fist plus thumb out, between the handle & the thighs.

[video=youtube_share;5Gr0Zp3dwCA]http://youtu.be/5Gr0Zp3dwCA[/video]

 

[the_coach]

[video=youtube_share;eu1AUXRZalk]http://youtu.be/eu1AUXRZalk[/video]

 

[DaveM]

Lots of good advice there coach. Might just stick my swing up one day, if I can figure out how to do it from my phone.
I've not played for 12mths due to bike accident. That smashed my left leg (im a lefty by the way). Got a new hip plus 3 metal plates in the said leg.
Started work on a new swing taking into account the injury. It's coming along nicely. Plenty of slow motion drills. So may put it on here before I get it grooved to see if any small tweaks are needed.

 

[RobertB]

I'd echo comments on posture and grip. The latter is the most ignored by many HC players, it's a significant change so people are afraid/put off but IMHO 30 years ago, when a teenager, fixing it took my HC from 14 to 7 in next to no time.

And it needs constant attention. Put yourself in right posture, stance with solid grip and get club on path and things fall into place.