The flying wedge....

[JustOne]

Might as well post these so I don't forget them....

[video=youtube;F9c57NhZFl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9c57NhZFl8[/video]

...not a bad strike for a half swing huh?

 

[JustOne]

..and a bit more detail in this one showing the right wrist remains passive:

[video=youtube;Tq-wcJtLTQw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq-wcJtLTQw[/video]

 

[bobmac]

Is this position below just a drill with a half swing and a wedge or should it be the same with the full swing and longer clubs?

 

[Foxholer]

What's your opinion Bob?

A composite of the first one's back-swing/impact and the second's follow through wouldn't be all that far off my full swing! Not quite as much lower body/leg drive as in 2, but that may be coming.

 

[bobmac]

What's your opinion Bob?

This is the first time ANYONE has actually asked for my opinion on the S&T swing.
In the passed, I have never said it was wrong, I just wouldn't teach it.
Do I like this position?
No.
To me, there's far too much weight on the outside of the left foot and the club should be allowed to swing through naturally and turn over to the inside.
To try and hold the angle in the right wrist that far into the follow through in my opinion is wrong and creates problems getting the clubface square at impact, especially with the longer clubs.
But if it's just a drill to improve the downward angle of attack (which is one of the 5 laws taught by the PGA) then I dont mind it.

 

[Foxholer]

Thanks for that Bob.

My sound is playing up, so I may have missed something, but I hadn't particularly associated the drill with S&T - just flying wedge as it's titled. First vid certainly doesn't look very S&T-ish.

Not to get into a(nother) debate on it, but as S&T and Weight Shift swings are so different, it seems only natural (to me at least) that a teacher of one method (as opposed to the 'styles' of one-plane-swing and two-plane-swing) would see 'faults' in the positions deemed 'correct' of another method. One of S&T's 'benefits' appears to be quality/consistency of impact, so perhaps a good drill all round. In the different 'styles', it seems that the same real fault often needs a different correction, depending on which style it is.

There does seem to be a lot of techno jargon about various bits of the swing - flying wedges being more associated to a mate of mine's helicopter reaction after a poor chip! While I'm a natural techie fan, there seems nothing that I read that solves my particular quirks as good as someone who knows my swing and/or is trained to analyse one.

 

[bobmac]

I dont think they mention S&T in the videos but whatever they call it, I wouldnt teach it
Philippe Bonfanti (2nd vid) is certainly a authorized S&T teacher

 

[virtuocity]

The flying wedge has transformed my short game.

 

[bladeplayer]

Interested if a bit confused now , my first lesson the other nite the guy showed me we would be working on this later , hands ahead of the ball weight more on the left side .. (disclaimer ,im not am expert of any of this)


Guy in the first video explaining this flying wedge says it will go LOWER but should go the same distance
guy at end of 2nd video tells us "it will be conducive to hitting it HIGH & far "

Can you see where people like myself who dont understan swing or swing mechanics can get confused watching videos ?

In the first vid , Would you be using the follow through position to determine the distance the ball goes ?

 

[JustOne]

Can you see where people like myself who dont understan swing or swing mechanics can get confused watching videos ?

Of course. It's pretty normal. To be expected in fact

The ball position and just how much weight and forward shaft lean you get with the wedge (clubshaft angle) will determine the flight, so they are both right. What is important is the drill itself. Personally I think they both follow thru too much considering it's just a drill.... but those were the best ones I could find. Beggars can't be choosers

 

[Foxholer]

In the first vid , Would you be using the follow through position to determine the distance the ball goes ?

Morphing away from the thread focus...but I'd say 'It depends!'.

Dave Pelz claims to have observed some of the guns practising, predicted the distances and created a whole 4 club 12 swing style of pitching where it's the back-swing (his 7:30, 9 and 10:30 clockface swings) that determines the distance with the follow through being to the same place every time. Others have the equal distance approach (9 to 3, 8 to 4, 10 to 2). Personal preference imo; neither being right/wrong/better than the other.

 

[SocketRocket]

I believe the 'Flying Wedge' term was first used by Homer Kelly in TGM.

This video explains the action nicely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3C1__L5usM

 

[stevelev]

Is this position below just a drill with a half swing and a wedge or should it be the same with the full swing and longer clubs?

I might be completely wrong here, but with a full extension on the follow through would the right wrist not straighten out slightly. I find this very miss leading especially as the finish is sawn off. With a full swing I would find it nigh on impossible to keep flex in the right wrist, especially as the left collapses on follow through.???? OPINIONS

So is this a bad follow through???

 

[JustOne]

So is this a bad follow through???

View attachment 4131

Good question, the answer is.... it's complicated.

The flying wedge drill is an impact drill, it takes you through impact and into the follow through. What happens half way up the follow through is either totally up to you OR it's going to be whatever your body wants to do. If your body doesn't need to flip or rotate/roll the club then it won't bother, likewise if you choose not to then you won't bother. The club will generally at some stage out race your shoulders, when that happens is technically controllable, but it will generally happen once your shoulders begin to slow or have stopped rotating.

I think to a degree the flying wedge drill shows that the clubhead doesn't necessarily out race the hands. If you don't have much forward lean at impact then it likely will a bit sooner on the upswing. This isn't a problem, you just wouldn't hold quite so much angle in the wedge into impact.

If we take your picture and ask is it a bad one we could use a different McIlroy picture and ask if it's a good one? So using McIlroy as an example (and you can decide here) has the clubhead in this swing gone past his hands? Is the clubface closed or rolling?.... OR if you look at the relative relationship of his shoulders, arms and the club is he still basically in his ADDRESS position?

If we wind it back a few frames has he flipped the club? or is the angle (wedge) between right arm and clubshaft maintained?

 

[stevelev]

Good question, the answer is.... it's complicated.

The flying wedge drill is an impact drill, it takes you through impact and into the follow through. What happens half way up the follow through is either totally up to you OR it's going to be whatever your body wants to do. If your body doesn't need to flip or rotate/roll the club then it won't bother, likewise if you choose not to then you won't bother. The club will generally at some stage out race your shoulders, when that happens is technically controllable, but it will generally happen once your shoulders begin to slow or have stopped rotating.

I think to a degree the flying wedge drill shows that the clubhead doesn't necessarily out race the hands. If you don't have much forward lean at impact then it likely will a bit sooner on the upswing. This isn't a problem, you just wouldn't hold quite so much angle in the wedge into impact.

If we take your picture and ask is it a bad one we could use a different McIlroy picture and ask if it's a good one? So using McIlroy as an example (and you can decide here) has the clubhead in this swing gone past his hands? Is the clubface closed or rolling?.... OR if you look at the relative relationship of his shoulders, arms and the club is he still basically in his ADDRESS position?

If we wind it back a few frames has he flipped the club? or is the angle (wedge) between right arm and clubshaft maintained?

But in both pictures the club is not yet parallel to the ground. Can you show me a picture of him with the club parallel with the same amount of flext in the right wrist??? I just want to get this right in my head as I tihnk that the drill is promoting holding off the follow through or may lead to fades.

 

[SocketRocket]

But in both pictures the club is not yet parallel to the ground. Can you show me a picture of him with the club parallel with the same amount of flext in the right wrist??? I just want to get this right in my head as I tihnk that the drill is promoting holding off the follow through or may lead to fades.

It matters nothing what the wrist is like at that position as the ball is long gone. JO explained this.

 

[JustOne]

Here's a recent video by mark crossfield that almost makes it look like you shouldn't hold onto the wedge.... and there's talk of hands passing the body, getting the club out in front, flipping the club over the right shoulder, hips slowing down etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQK2D_lVEEY

So now there's one set of pros saying do a flying wedge and someone else trying to give a totally different feel altogether... the thing is someone somewhere probably needs that feeling of flipping, rolling etc if they happen to hold onto the club too much, can't extend properly or subsequently chicken wing their arms, that doesn't mean that we should all suddenly slow down our hips and flip the club. If you have trouble extending your arms to a correct extension (release) then you're going to need a different feel... I personally think that 'feel' you might need is the flying wedge drill, but that's besides the point

Here's another video by him about the release.... where he's now saying the club doesn't flip, roll or turn over...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JalAVnzZBoY

 

[JustOne]

But in both pictures the club is not yet parallel to the ground. Can you show me a picture of him with the club parallel with the same amount of flext in the right wrist??? I just want to get this right in my head as I tihnk that the drill is promoting holding off the follow through or may lead to fades.

I'd love to but it's like looking for unicorn poo to get a swing that's filmed backwards....
(find some and send me the links by all means)

Here's mark cossfields from that video...

The toe hasn't rolled over, it's still vertical (even though he has let the shaft pass his hands slightly). If he feels from this stage that he want to roll the club, rehinge the club, let it pass his hands more or even let go of the club completely it's of no consequence however the downswing (and the position we get into with our shoulders, arms and wrists) will usually dictate what is going to happen into the follow thru, which is why impact (and the flying wedge drill) is so important.

 

[bobmac]

As I didn't get a reply, I'll assume it's a full swing.

So now there's one set of pros saying do a flying wedge and someone else trying to give a totally different feel altogether...

You are suggesting that teaching pros are split between those who would teach that position and those who dont.
When in actual fact it's probably less than 10 who do and 4,990 who dont (in Britain).

So you can either follow the advice from Philippe Bondanti and keep the angle in the right wrist......

or you can copy the guys below who have a straight line from their right arm through to the club shaft and the angle in the LEFT wrist

Your choice folks.

Now I'm not saying it's wrong to have a good angle of attack with your short clubs, far from it, but I dont agree that golfers should hold the angle in the right wrist as long as is being suggested above.

Just my opinion

 

[Smiffy]

I do it my own way. And I'm a great wedge player