Swine Flu Vacinations? A concerned parent.

[stevek1969]

As for young children, I bet you have never seen a kid with HIB meningitis. I have. That disease has been eliminated by immunization, as have a bunch of other diseases.

I totally agree with you on this Ethan my oldest son contacted meningitis when he was 6 weeks old the same day we were told he had a heart condition so i've seen the effects of meningitis so if my doctor says he needs these injections he gets them never mind what some newspaper or media say end of

 

[vig]

I have had half a doz staff off with swine flu and they all said that the symptoms were not as bad as the "normal" flu.

That said, normal flu can kill if there are underlying issues in the patient.

With the above statement, I am no expert and "man flu" as most of us get is nothing more than a common cold

 

[drawboy]

Whoa whoa whoa, don't be saying things like that big boy, women could read that then we are knackered. it's bad enough trying to get looked after when we are poorly without you spilling the beans over man flu...shame on you, disgrace to the race.

 

[Herbie]

That stupid post by MVP has angered me, and I realise that my previous response was insufficient.

I work in Research and Development in the pharmaceutical industry (although not for a vaccine manufacturer) and previously I was a public health physician where I dealt with outbreaks and immunizations.

Swine flu is not a con. It is a version of the flu that occurs every generation or so when a large shift in the nature of the virus occurs. It is true that most people do not have a major illness, but when so many in the population get it, even a low attack rate causes many deaths.

The immunization is a genuine and effective immunization. It has not be half-tested. The EMEA does not approve these vaccines based on insufficient data.

I will accept the invitation that my 2 year old son receives for swine flu immunization, as I did for all his other immunizations. Anyone who believes that a toddler's immune system is not ready for immunization is a fool who does not understand immunology.

Ironically, in the call to be open minded, MVP shows that he is ignorant and closed minded, not to mention gullible and easily led by pseudo science and scare stories made up to inflame the feckless and the paranoid.

The research is clear. Immunization is effective. Swine flu is potentially lethal to high risk groups.

MVP may not have been aware of swine flu a year ago, but many scientists were aware of this well over a year ago.

Ahh the brilliance of science research.....note the search is ongoing . Though I do not disagree with your opinion on this subject, it does not make you an authority any more than anyone else who researches this subject following different avenues of scientific research.The scientists have been wrong more times than they have been right, they have to be in order to get nearer to the right answer. You are wrong to dismiss the opinions of others, including newspapers and placing yourself on the top step of the 'listen to me club cos Im right' history has shown ordinary folk to be right when those who are supposed to be, were not, so have the newspapers you so quickly sneer at. Maybe you are right, maybe you do have a handle on the subject, but maybe, just maybe, you are wrong like so many drug and vaccine pushers before you. No one likes an arrogant smart ass, so maybe you could be a little more polite to people, maybe someone just like you was responsible for thalidomide.

As for the subject in OP I personally do not consider it the great threat or risk it is portrayed to be, it has no more overall risk (in fact less than many)to human life than many previous flu types, though it does appear risky to vulnerable groups and in particular young infants. I dont know if this is a result of a weaker society in this age of abundant drugs for everything or a real threat to infants due to the nature of the flu itself. The facts are that infants are at risk on the basis of the current scientific and factual evidence available so maybe this points to immunisation being a good idea, yet overall, the fatality toll throughout all groups suggests otherwise.
If you feel at risk, or fearful, then get it done I say, if not, at least let it run its course without bleeting.

 

[Ethan]

That stupid post by MVP has angered me, and I realise that my previous response was insufficient.

I work in Research and Development in the pharmaceutical industry (although not for a vaccine manufacturer) and previously I was a public health physician where I dealt with outbreaks and immunizations.

Swine flu is not a con. It is a version of the flu that occurs every generation or so when a large shift in the nature of the virus occurs. It is true that most people do not have a major illness, but when so many in the population get it, even a low attack rate causes many deaths.

The immunization is a genuine and effective immunization. It has not be half-tested. The EMEA does not approve these vaccines based on insufficient data.

I will accept the invitation that my 2 year old son receives for swine flu immunization, as I did for all his other immunizations. Anyone who believes that a toddler's immune system is not ready for immunization is a fool who does not understand immunology.

Ironically, in the call to be open minded, MVP shows that he is ignorant and closed minded, not to mention gullible and easily led by pseudo science and scare stories made up to inflame the feckless and the paranoid.

The research is clear. Immunization is effective. Swine flu is potentially lethal to high risk groups.

MVP may not have been aware of swine flu a year ago, but many scientists were aware of this well over a year ago.

Ahh the brilliance of science research.....note the search is ongoing . Though I do not disagree with your opinion on this subject, it does not make you an authority any more than anyone else who researches this subject following different avenues of scientific research.The scientists have been wrong more times than they have been right, they have to be in order to get nearer to the right answer. You are wrong to dismiss the opinions of others, including newspapers and placing yourself on the top step of the 'listen to me club cos Im right' history has shown ordinary folk to be right when those who are supposed to be, were not, so have the newspapers you so quickly sneer at. Maybe you are right, maybe you do have a handle on the subject, but maybe, just maybe, you are wrong like so many drug and vaccine pushers before you. No one likes an arrogant smart ass, so maybe you could be a little more polite to people, maybe someone just like you was responsible for thalidomide.

As for the subject in OP I personally do not consider it the great threat or risk it is portrayed to be, it has no more overall risk (in fact less than many)to human life than many previous flu types, though it does appear risky to vulnerable groups and in particular young infants. I dont know if this is a result of a weaker society in this age of abundant drugs for everything or a real threat to infants due to the nature of the flu itself. The facts are that infants are at risk on the basis of the current scientific and factual evidence available so maybe this points to immunisation being a good idea, yet overall, the fatality toll throughout all groups suggests otherwise.
If you feel at risk, or fearful, then get it done I say, if not, at least let it run its course without bleeting.

Herbie

So Herbie does not consider swine flu to be a great threat. Hurray! The NHS should stand down immediately.

You call me arrogant, yet you come out with a bunch of platitudes and cliches and offer no actual facts. Science has been wrong as often as it has been right. There are other avenues of research, blah, blah blah.

It is in fact quite right and proper to dismiss the views of those who opinions have been disproved or are based on cod science. Not all science is equal. that which can be proven and repeated is more valuable than that based only on opinion or anecdote.

The fact is that within conventional science, there is not any meaningful debate on the merits of immunisation. Within quack science, there may be debate, but there are also those who still think the world was created 6000 years ago.

As for the thalidomide remark, that really shows you to be rather dumb. Did you know thalidomide is now one of the main drugs used to teach certain cancers? No, guess not.

The fact I work in drug development means that I do know more about, well, drug development, than those who don't. Just as you know more about whatever it is you do than I do. Sorry, that is the way it is,

Finally, I think the word you are looking for is 'bleating'.

 

[AuburnWarrior]

That stupid post by MVP has angered me, and I realise that my previous response was insufficient.

I work in Research and Development in the pharmaceutical industry (although not for a vaccine manufacturer) and previously I was a public health physician where I dealt with outbreaks and immunizations.

Swine flu is not a con. It is a version of the flu that occurs every generation or so when a large shift in the nature of the virus occurs. It is true that most people do not have a major illness, but when so many in the population get it, even a low attack rate causes many deaths.

The immunization is a genuine and effective immunization. It has not be half-tested. The EMEA does not approve these vaccines based on insufficient data.

I will accept the invitation that my 2 year old son receives for swine flu immunization, as I did for all his other immunizations. Anyone who believes that a toddler's immune system is not ready for immunization is a fool who does not understand immunology.

Ironically, in the call to be open minded, MVP shows that he is ignorant and closed minded, not to mention gullible and easily led by pseudo science and scare stories made up to inflame the feckless and the paranoid.

The research is clear. Immunization is effective. Swine flu is potentially lethal to high risk groups.

MVP may not have been aware of swine flu a year ago, but many scientists were aware of this well over a year ago.

Ahh the brilliance of science research.....note the search is ongoing . Though I do not disagree with your opinion on this subject, it does not make you an authority any more than anyone else who researches this subject following different avenues of scientific research.The scientists have been wrong more times than they have been right, they have to be in order to get nearer to the right answer. You are wrong to dismiss the opinions of others, including newspapers and placing yourself on the top step of the 'listen to me club cos Im right' history has shown ordinary folk to be right when those who are supposed to be, were not, so have the newspapers you so quickly sneer at. Maybe you are right, maybe you do have a handle on the subject, but maybe, just maybe, you are wrong like so many drug and vaccine pushers before you. No one likes an arrogant smart ass, so maybe you could be a little more polite to people, maybe someone just like you was responsible for thalidomide.

As for the subject in OP I personally do not consider it the great threat or risk it is portrayed to be, it has no more overall risk (in fact less than many)to human life than many previous flu types, though it does appear risky to vulnerable groups and in particular young infants. I dont know if this is a result of a weaker society in this age of abundant drugs for everything or a real threat to infants due to the nature of the flu itself. The facts are that infants are at risk on the basis of the current scientific and factual evidence available so maybe this points to immunisation being a good idea, yet overall, the fatality toll throughout all groups suggests otherwise.
If you feel at risk, or fearful, then get it done I say, if not, at least let it run its course without bleeting.

Herbie

So Herbie does not consider swine flu to be a great threat. Hurray! The NHS should stand down immediately.

You call me arrogant, yet you come out with a bunch of platitudes and cliches and offer no actual facts. Science has been wrong as often as it has been right. There are other avenues of research, blah, blah blah.

It is in fact quite right and proper to dismiss the views of those who opinions have been disproved or are based on cod science. Not all science is equal. that which can be proven and repeated is more valuable than that based only on opinion or anecdote.

The fact is that within conventional science, there is not any meaningful debate on the merits of immunisation. Within quack science, there may be debate, but there are also those who still think the world was created 6000 years ago.

As for the thalidomide remark, that really shows you to be rather dumb. Did you know thalidomide is now one of the main drugs used to teach certain cancers? No, guess not.

The fact I work in drug development means that I do know more about, well, drug development, than those who don't. Just as you know more about whatever it is you do than I do. Sorry, that is the way it is,

Finally, I think the word you are looking for is 'bleating'.

Hang on a minute! With regards thalidomide - who recommended that pregnant women take it in the first place? Doctors - and who would have advised them - Research and Development people within the pharmaceutical industry. They get it horrendously wrong and then find out that it can be used to treat certain cancers. Scant consolation for all the thalidomide victims who, I believe, are still waiting for an official apology.

My point - we're all human which means we make mistakes. Some mistakes - not too bad - others - terrible. The mistake with thalidomide fits into the terrible bracket and it's good that it's found to be a good combatant against cancer but an example of where the medical world got it wrong.

With regards swine flu - I think the British press and the NHS must take a lot of stick for this. The Sun broke the story intimating that this was going to be as deadly as Ebola breaking out in downtown New York!!! This creates panic which the NHS then have to deal with. They can't so they start doing stupid things like telling people with babies (me) to keep my child away from the surgery when he blatantly needed to see someone. They told me he had swine flu. I knew different and upon my persistent requests a doctor saw him and diagnosed a chest infection and not swine flu.

One of my colleagues was diagnosed with swine flu but, once again, new it was something different. He flew back to India, booked himself into hospital for tests and they told him he had spinal TB!!! Nowhere near TB!!!

It seems/seemed that every person had swine flu!!!

What should have happened was a broadcast along the lines of a party political broadcast to explain the facts and try to allay people's fears. As a public we needed proper, constructive information and not a usual United Kingdom panic.

FYI - I have nothing but admiration for the NHS as they saved my son's life when he was three days old so please don't think that I'm slagging them off. I think that as a result of the gutter press they were left in an impossible situation.

Ethan, you are a highly educated person - that's evident but people are entitled to their opinion and if anyone decides to not inoculate their child - that's up to them. We all do what we think is right by our children - some right, some wrong but we all try and do our best. All you can do is provide your side of the argument.

I'll get my children inoculated I would imagine - best to be on the safe side.

 

[MVP]

Ok like i have said before read this information and make your own mind up but heres a website link with some good information on vaccines if u wish to read it or not its up to you.

http://www.thinktwice.com/

 

[Ethan]

Hang on a minute! With regards thalidomide - who recommended that pregnant women take it in the first place? Doctors - and who would have advised them - Research and Development people within the pharmaceutical industry. They get it horrendously wrong and then find out that it can be used to treat certain cancers. Scant consolation for all the thalidomide victims who, I believe, are still waiting for an official apology.

My point - we're all human which means we make mistakes. Some mistakes - not too bad - others - terrible. The mistake with thalidomide fits into the terrible bracket and it's good that it's found to be a good combatant against cancer but an example of where the medical world got it wrong.

With regards swine flu - I think the British press and the NHS must take a lot of stick for this. The Sun broke the story intimating that this was going to be as deadly as Ebola breaking out in downtown New York!!! This creates panic which the NHS then have to deal with. They can't so they start doing stupid things like telling people with babies (me) to keep my child away from the surgery when he blatantly needed to see someone. They told me he had swine flu. I knew different and upon my persistent requests a doctor saw him and diagnosed a chest infection and not swine flu.

One of my colleagues was diagnosed with swine flu but, once again, new it was something different. He flew back to India, booked himself into hospital for tests and they told him he had spinal TB!!! Nowhere near TB!!!

It seems/seemed that every person had swine flu!!!

What should have happened was a broadcast along the lines of a party political broadcast to explain the facts and try to allay people's fears. As a public we needed proper, constructive information and not a usual United Kingdom panic.

FYI - I have nothing but admiration for the NHS as they saved my son's life when he was three days old so please don't think that I'm slagging them off. I think that as a result of the gutter press they were left in an impossible situation.

Ethan, you are a highly educated person - that's evident but people are entitled to their opinion and if anyone decides to not inoculate their child - that's up to them. We all do what we think is right by our children - some right, some wrong but we all try and do our best. All you can do is provide your side of the argument.

I'll get my children inoculated I would imagine - best to be on the safe side.

OK, fair enough. There are a few things here.

Thalidomide was produced in the 50s. At that stage, the process for approval of new drugs was very primitive, and clearly the drug caused massive problems. As a result, drug approval mechanisms were really beefed up. Thalidomide could not happen today. In the 60s, pharma companies typically did not have staff doctors, in fact.

Every new drug will have some side effects. If the effect is rare, say 1 in 1000 people, there is a chance that the relationship of the drug to that effect will not have been seen before it reaches the market. Post-marketing safety assessment is also performed these days. Even if something IS seen during testing, it can be very difficult to know whether that event was connected to the drug or not.

The pandemic flu helpline was a complete joke. It has been estimated that fewer than 5% of people told to take tamiflu actually had swine flu. Many doctors advised against this approach (as they do with NHS Direct too, by the way). However, the misdiagnosis of someone's TB does not really inform the decision to get immunised.

People are entitled to their opinions, but they are also entitled to be told when the information that those opinions are based on is nonsense. For example, the stupid website posted by MVP in the post before this. There is also a social responsibility. One way in which vulnerable people are protected is when all of us get immunised and therefore cannot transmit.

Science is always evolving, but on some matters is reasonably settled. In the media, interviews and reports on some subjects are set up to portray issues as debates between two protagonists, suggesting the debate is finely balanced even when it is not. Doctors have a responsibility to promote safe treatments, get rid of unsafe one and call out the charlatans who give bad advice based on their prejudice, self interest or mental illness.

 

[User20205]

Ok like i have said before read this information and make your own mind up but heres a website link with some good information on vaccines if u wish to read it or not its up to you.

http://www.thinktwice.com/

This kind of reactionary nonsense is dangerous. It has taken me 2 weeks to get my pregnant wife to get the vaccine. A number of her baby group haven't had their children have the MMR vaccine because this type of misinformation breeds doubt + confusion.

Look at the quality of the thinktwice website, it looks like its been knocked up by a 13 year old conspiracy theorist in his bedroom.

There is no master plan to harm/control the population by governments/pharma companies it is purely a public health matter. Get the vaccine

 

[JustOne]

My son had swine flu jab yesterday. I'm not worried and neither is he. I explained the consequences and he asked if it was OK to have 'Lego Star Wars' for Christmas

 

[USER1999]

If I catch 'lego star wars' in time for Christmas can I avoid having to go in for stock taking?

 

[Jahmoo]

Swine flu is a bloody great con ...for christs sakes i wish so called intelligent people would wake up......

first of all it has made drug companies billions...and secondly if anyone could be bothered to check the ingredients..of which one is mercury !!!! then they will realise that is a load of crap.


and i would never give all them toxins to a young child whos immune system has not even developed.....


Please research this yourself guys cos most of my posts on this matter get ignored for some reason...

Do be open minded and dont take swine flu vaccinations!!


Oh heres another little fact GLaxo smith kline or whatever theyre called got a patent for the swine flu vaccine over a year ago!!!!!! before there was even a swine flu outbreak or fear of one !! Now if that doesnt spook you what will!!!!!

MVP, I for one am not ignoring you, as I understand what you are saying....Doctors are not wasting their time, as they are targeted, the more Vaccines given the more money they get.

I am Diabetic, I wdo not have any Flu Jab, my son is nearly 2yrs old, has not had any Vaccines, yes you may feel that I am putting your child at risk, but then that is what they want you to feel, scare mongers, scare you into doing something they want you to do.

Me and my Son will not be having any Jabs, its a con, not to them, as the money is big business, pitty they are happy to poison others to make money..........

 

[Jahmoo]

Vaccinations are a good discovery, but unfortunately the way they are produced, tested and then marketed with the vast monetary benefits to companies and the health industry/doctors is not good...that's putting it very lightly.. people and sadly the children are not at the front of the considerations for their production....

Additives like mercury have apparently been removed from most, but not all - no reasons were given why, but even a lay person would think this poison is not the best thing to include in anything given to a person, let alone a child directly into the system. Aluminium and squalane are other additives with dubious benefits. The swine flu jab from Glaxo Smithkline has additives.

The MMR multi dose vaccine is still under scrutiny and quite rightly so. ..if the Government were so concerened about us protecting children from what are common childhood diseases, then the option of separate injections should also be included.

That's my rant...be informed...ask which vaccine you are being given, if you are getting one... and what's in it and the alternatives......you are entitled to know!

 

[DCB]

I have a friend who is currently in an IC ward, on a ventilator and not doing too well at the moment.

He has what has been diagnosed as swine flu.

Hopefully he wont become just another statistic.

 

[haplesshacker]

I didn't expect to start quite a fight with the innocuious question in the op.

I'm a bit of a cynic regarding drug companies, money, the media and the government. But when it comes to my kids I'm probably more open minded. Having read and re-read the posts on here, I feel slightly better informed due to the differing points of view regarding this. Though still none the wiser.

I guess whatever 'facts' I dig up from professionals and hacks alike aren't really going to be that different from what's been brought up here. Certainly your average journo isn't going to be any better informed than some of the respondants here, and neither is my GP, probably!

 

[Ethan]

Vaccinations are a good discovery, but unfortunately the way they are produced, tested and then marketed with the vast monetary benefits to companies and the health industry/doctors is not good...that's putting it very lightly.. people and sadly the children are not at the front of the considerations for their production....

Additives like mercury have apparently been removed from most, but not all - no reasons were given why, but even a lay person would think this poison is not the best thing to include in anything given to a person, let alone a child directly into the system. Aluminium and squalane are other additives with dubious benefits. The swine flu jab from Glaxo Smithkline has additives.

The MMR multi dose vaccine is still under scrutiny and quite rightly so. ..if the Government were so concerened about us protecting children from what are common childhood diseases, then the option of separate injections should also be included.

That's my rant...be informed...ask which vaccine you are being given, if you are getting one... and what's in it and the alternatives......you are entitled to know!

Jahmoo

Your kids have been spared diphtheria, polio, HIB meningitis and other fatal diseases that used to be common in this country because of the immunisation programmes over the years, and the 'herd immunity' that follows. Your children could pass on infections to others. How would you feel if someone got measles from your un-immunised kid and had permanent brain damage? Would you be so smug then?

The MMR immunisation has been shown NOT to be implicated in autism. Ironically, that bad science was promoted by the idiot anti-vaccine fringe. And you raise the issue of single injections. But surely that only increases all the nasty toxins intended to poison your child?

'Be informed' is precisely the opposite to what will happen if people listen to advice from you and read these conspiracy websites.

Do let me know what the alternatives are to immunisation for these conditions. You may be sitting on a medical breakthrough.

 

[Jahmoo]

Vaccinations are a good discovery, but unfortunately the way they are produced, tested and then marketed with the vast monetary benefits to companies and the health industry/doctors is not good...that's putting it very lightly.. people and sadly the children are not at the front of the considerations for their production....

Additives like mercury have apparently been removed from most, but not all - no reasons were given why, but even a lay person would think this poison is not the best thing to include in anything given to a person, let alone a child directly into the system. Aluminium and squalane are other additives with dubious benefits. The swine flu jab from Glaxo Smithkline has additives.

The MMR multi dose vaccine is still under scrutiny and quite rightly so. ..if the Government were so concerened about us protecting children from what are common childhood diseases, then the option of separate injections should also be included.

That's my rant...be informed...ask which vaccine you are being given, if you are getting one... and what's in it and the alternatives......you are entitled to know!

Jahmoo

Your kids have been spared diphtheria, polio, HIB meningitis and other fatal diseases that used to be common in this country because of the immunisation programmes over the years, and the 'herd immunity' that follows. Your children could pass on infections to others. How would you feel if someone got measles from your un-immunised kid and had permanent brain damage? Would you be so smug then?

The MMR immunisation has been shown NOT to be implicated in autism. Ironically, that bad science was promoted by the idiot anti-vaccine fringe. And you raise the issue of single injections. But surely that only increases all the nasty toxins intended to poison your child?

'Be informed' is precisely the opposite to what will happen if people listen to advice from you and read these conspiracy websites.

Do let me know what the alternatives are to immunisation for these conditions. You may be sitting on a medical breakthrough.

Noted

 

[Jahmoo]

Just an Update on this, as we now here nothing of it....reason why, because the WHO called it a Pandemic, so the Pharmaceutical's are paid, lucky them....No more need to worry

Read the Link.....Europe have the right idea

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/175942.php

Our Government have loads to get rid of, so they are saying the below....where did they get the money to buy so many Vaccines.......US!!

REPORTED LAST PARAGRAPH - on link.

Other experts, such as those at the UK's Department of Health, have said that although the outbreak appears to be waning, they also suggested that there could a third wave of the pandemic, and urged everyone entitled to have the swine flu vaccine to take it.

 

[viscount17]

aren't there out of date limits on these vaccines - a case of use it or throw it away?

 

[haplesshacker]

After much deliberation. Both of mine had their jab yesterday. It's still a concern amongest friends of ours with kids the same age.

I'm a cynical so an so at the best of times, especially regarding goverment and big business. But on reflection I think that we did the right thing.