Scottish Golf

patricks148

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same things just as true of english clubs some 40 years ago, so not really relavant of todays clubs, many small towns with small populations and incraseing costs to run are the reasons they are struggling not elitism
 

Jacko_G

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It's hardly a ground breaking bit of journalism, and just a publication on what most already know.

That said I do hope clubs continue to evolve and embrace change, break down barriers and include all.
 
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Just read a pretty strong attack on 'elitist' Scottish golf clubs in The Guardian.

A quote: Brexit, the 2008 banking crisis and many miscarriages of justice involving police and the judiciary were probably spawned in these hideous places.

Well worth a read. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...andicap-its-elitist-cubs-change-is-in-the-air
England prob has far more “exclusive” clubs than Scotland

Wisley
Wentworth
Bearwood
Queenwood
Beaverbrook
JCB
Centurion

And I expect there are some more

But those clubs are not struggling ( well I’m not sure off centurion has reached its member levels ) because there are enough people around that love that “exclusivity” - maybe that’s the main appeal of it but some of the courses I have played in that list are excellent - Bearwood , Wentworth but some are ok Centurion , Wisley - with mainly the condition being great but not fantastic courses
 

HomerJSimpson

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England prob has far more “exclusive” clubs than Scotland

Wisley
Wentworth
Bearwood
Queenwood
Beaverbrook
JCB
Centurion

And I expect there are some more

But those clubs are not struggling ( well I’m not sure off centurion has reached its member levels ) because there are enough people around that love that “exclusivity” - maybe that’s the main appeal of it but some of the courses I have played in that list are excellent - Bearwood , Wentworth but some are ok Centurion , Wisley - with mainly the condition being great but not fantastic courses
Sorry but do you know that for a fact that they aren't struggling. Exclusivity doesn't necessarily make a sound business model.

As for the article it's not exactly ground breaking but surely whether you are an exclusive club or a local 18 holer, if you don't cut your cloth accordingly and make a profit then you won't survive. That's simple economics irrespective of your size and inclusivity
 

stefanovic

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I've noticed the new JCB course when I've been to Rocester.
You can play it at weekends for £60 provided you are a JCB employee.
For the rest of us, just forget it.
 

pendodave

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Seems to me that headline doesn't entirely represent the article.
I've always thought that Scotland has the most inclusive and 'normal' relationship with golf that I've come across. Long may it continue.
 

Grant85

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I doubt this is only the case in Scotland - probably around the UK and America clubs that once enjoyed status as elite members clubs now find their cash flow is such that they are now having to informally drop their elite status and let anyone in who wants to pay the fees.

In Scotland the issue is more glaring as there are so many clubs, many of which are 100 years old or more, that have struggled on for years on a shoestring and gradually dropping 1 at a time. It is an incredibly slow death as a golf club, where a business would have liquidated and cut their losses years before every club that is beyond the point of no return keeps persevering and clinging onto existence with 200 or so members.

In reality, clubs in many areas need to merge with 2 or 3 clubs becoming a single club. Either sell one piece of land and reduce the number of courses by 1... or just merge and retain 3 courses but share resource in terms of staff / equipment and offer the same membership price for 3 courses.

Scenario I've heard would be... 3 clubs merge. Sell the land that is most valuable. Bank an 8 figure sum. Renovate one site to have a great facility / clubhouse / course / practice / swimming pool / gym etc. Maintain the other site as still a good place to play golf and get a drink and a bar meal and run competitions from. And offer membership at the same price for a much better offering in terms of 2 courses available, one with top end facilities.

Problem is that no membership would vote for their club to be the one to be sold, in fact there's probably not a club that would even get it as far as a vote. So ultimately clubs trundle on until it's too late, and rather than being a pro-active merger to invigorate 3 clubs, it becomes a rescue deal. With the other clubs targeting survival until the weakest clubs membership starts to split.
 
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Siolag

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The thing is, his gloating is actually probably more likely to be about a club that is closing that is exactly the opposite of the ones he is describing. If an elite club went to the wall rather than having the wrong sort as members, fair enough, gloat. But a place like Eastwood or the Camperdown course closing is hardly the same thing.
 

Robster59

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I doubt this is only the case in Scotland - probably around the UK and America clubs that once enjoyed status as elite members clubs now find their cash flow is such that they are now having to informally drop their elite status and let anyone in who wants to pay the fees.

In Scotland the issue is more glaring as there are so many clubs, many of which are 100 years old or more, that have struggled on for years on a shoestring and gradually dropping 1 at a time. It is an incredibly slow death as a golf club, where a business would have liquidated and cut their losses years before every club that is beyond the point of no return keeps persevering and clinging onto existence with 200 or so members.

In reality, clubs in many areas need to merge with 2 or 3 clubs becoming a single club. Either sell one piece of land and reduce the number of courses by 1... or just merge and retain 3 courses but share resource in terms of staff / equipment and offer the same membership price for 3 courses.

Scenario I've heard would be... 3 clubs merge. Sell the land that is most valuable. Bank an 8 figure sum. Renovate one site to have a great facility / clubhouse / course / practice / swimming pool / gym etc. Maintain the other site as still a good place to play golf and get a drink and a bar meal and run competitions from. And offer membership at the same price for a much better offering in terms of 2 courses available, one with top end facilities.

Problem is that no membership would vote for their club to be the one to be sold, in fact there's probably not a club that would even get it as far as a vote. So ultimately clubs trundle on until it's too late, and rather than being a pro-active merger to invigorate 3 clubs, it becomes a rescue deal. With the other clubs targeting survival until the weakest clubs membership starts to split.
Well we let you in ;):p. You make some good points and I think that a merger could save a club but you also hit the nail on the head when you say that members wouldn't vote for their club to close. The only that could sway them is the value of the land for a members club. If you can find a builder willing to pay enough money for the land (I can think of a few examples near us where there is a lot of value in the land) then the members could vote to close the club, pocket their share of the money and move onto a new club. The likelihood of this happening is pretty slim and so you could get to the situation as we saw earlier in the year when the club ran down to nothing and the money they got for the land mainly went to pay of the creditors.

I agree with other peoples comments that the article seems to be looking at what the situation has been like and doesn't really reflect the situation in most of Scotland. I've not had a problem at any of the clubs I've been fortunate to visit in terms of snobbery. They appreciate the business and revenue.
 

backwoodsman

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He's conflating at least 3 different things.

Exclusivity and long waiting lists are by no means the same thing. Those of you residing north of the border can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of those clubs with long waiting lists, had those lists because they were popular - good clubs with good courses and more people wanted in than could be accommodated. Like has been said, there's probably rather more pompous & snooty clubs south of the border. After all, it's something we English are rather good at. And the current spate of course closures, ain't about the exclusive ones
 

Grant85

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He's conflating at least 3 different things.

Exclusivity and long waiting lists are by no means the same thing. Those of you residing north of the border can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of those clubs with long waiting lists, had those lists because they were popular - good clubs with good courses and more people wanted in than could be accommodated. Like has been said, there's probably rather more pompous & snooty clubs south of the border. After all, it's something we English are rather good at. And the current spate of course closures, ain't about the exclusive ones

I think it was a mixture of both. A club with a long waiting list could be very picky about who they invited from the list to join.

Likely if you were well known to the members given business background, religion, race, class etc... then the waiting list didn't apply.

Obviously different clubs would have operated differently, and much of this will have not been apparent to many on the outside.
 

Grant85

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Well we let you in ;):p. You make some good points and I think that a merger could save a club but you also hit the nail on the head when you say that members wouldn't vote for their club to close. The only that could sway them is the value of the land for a members club. If you can find a builder willing to pay enough money for the land (I can think of a few examples near us where there is a lot of value in the land) then the members could vote to close the club, pocket their share of the money and move onto a new club. The likelihood of this happening is pretty slim and so you could get to the situation as we saw earlier in the year when the club ran down to nothing and the money they got for the land mainly went to pay of the creditors.

I agree with other peoples comments that the article seems to be looking at what the situation has been like and doesn't really reflect the situation in most of Scotland. I've not had a problem at any of the clubs I've been fortunate to visit in terms of snobbery. They appreciate the business and revenue.

I believe Cambuslang, which is a 9 holer in a potentially decent residential area, had an offer to sell to a developer. Went through a lot of planning and various scenarios only for the members to vote it down.

Not sure of the state of health, but I imagine a few of the members were quite happy to take the money and join elsewhere.
 

Robster59

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I believe Cambuslang, which is a 9 holer in a potentially decent residential area, had an offer to sell to a developer. Went through a lot of planning and various scenarios only for the members to vote it down.

Not sure of the state of health, but I imagine a few of the members were quite happy to take the money and join elsewhere.
And, to be brutal, it's not a great course so it just shows that the emotions for these things run deep.
 

patricks148

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He's conflating at least 3 different things.

Exclusivity and long waiting lists are by no means the same thing. Those of you residing north of the border can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of those clubs with long waiting lists, had those lists because they were popular - good clubs with good courses and more people wanted in than could be accommodated. Like has been said, there's probably rather more pompous & snooty clubs south of the border. After all, it's something we English are rather good at. And the current spate of course closures, ain't about the exclusive ones
i think golf i less pop than it was a few years ago, certainly in parts of Scotland.

for instance when we moved to Inverness, inverness golf club had a 7 year waiting list, in fact it could take you 4 years to even get on the list, now you can walk in pretty much. all the smaller clubs like Tain, Brora, Golpie and fortrose are all short of members, its the same amount of golfers around, but as its got more expensive to run the club, membership fee's went up and guys who where members at 2 and somtimes 3 clubs are now just one. you also had guys thay were members and only played half a dozen times a year were members when it was £200 for mebership now its double that, they just pay a green fee or play with a mate and get signed on. Nomads are becoming more and more common
 
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