Rules Q

[Ken_A]

I was playing a match the other night and our opposition took a stance under a low hanging branch, he pushed it out of his way but nothing wans broken or dislodged. This was moved by standing below it and pushing it upwords with his back.

Is this a penalty? I think it is under 13-2 'A player must not improove or allow to be improved -the area of his stance or swing - by bending, moving or breaking anything growing or fixed.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs in fairly taking his stance.

I was outnumbered 3/1 when I pulled him on this (my partner was unsure)
The Pro 'thinks it was ok'

Opinions please.

 

[USER1999]

This is where 'interpretation' comes in. The rules aren't often balck and white. To me, it is a penalty, but to some one else, it is making a stance. Most people I play with will do similar to this guy, and think nothing wrong with it.

 

[chrisd]

From the R and A's own web site on rules

Play the ball as it lies. Don’t improve your lie, the area of your intended stance or swing, or your line of play by moving, bending or breaking anything fixed or growing, except in fairly taking your stance or making your swing. Don’t improve your lie by pressing anything down. (Rule 13-2)


Clear as mud!


Chris

 

[freddielong]

Penalty in my opinion

 

[Ken_A]

To be honest I just wanted to prove it my playing partner who never backed me up.

We won on that hole, so it's not so bad.

 

[chrisd]

A better explanation after looking at Decisions on the Rules of Golf on the R and A web site


Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.
• standing on a branch to prevent it interfering with the backswing or stroke.
• hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds for the same purpose.
• bending with a hand a branch obscuring the ball after the stance has been taken.
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch.



So, you are not entitled to a "proper" stance and only to move things enough to be able to play the ball - not necessarily how and to where you would want to play it

Hope this helps, and yes, probably a penalty!


Chris

 

[Society_Fan]

If he was just taking his stance then no penalty in my book. If however he's hooked a branch behind his leg to get it out of the way of his swing then it should be a penalty.

 

[muttleee]

I would say that if he deliberately pushed the branch out of the way with his hand before taking his stance, then that would be a penalty but if the branch moved while he was taking his normal stance over the ball, that would be ok. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JustOne]

It depends whether or not he could have made a proper stance without having to bend the branch... it would be one for the rules official - I assume you had one with you?

 

[Robobum]

From your description it sounds like a penalty. Unless for some reason that was the only way he could get into the tree??

If this branch was at a level with his back and he moved it by reversing in to take his stance then fair enough, no penalty.

 

[JustOne]

So, you are not entitled to a "proper" stance

I disagree, you can have a proper stance as long as you don't try (or go out of your way) to improve the swingpath of the club unnecessarily.

In the situation as described I would say NO PENALTY.

 

[Ken_A]

Lesson learnt - iPhone on flight mode from now on and R&A app loaded ready to rock.

As a side note this perticular 'player' is a Jnr, he plays off 2 and is a great pleyaer- just not quite the personality.
On Another hole he was chatting to another jnr who was playing about with one of the plastic air balls.
The lad we where playing then proceded to hit the plastic ball while we where playing a hole - I was getting a bit p155ed with his attitude and told him that if he drops a ball and plays it during a hole then it is in play, then I asked him if he though it was on the conforming list.
He got the point and left it in the middle of a fairway for his mate to lift.

I would have taken the hole of him normally just to teach a lesson but his partner is a great lad who was really trying to beat us. Whom I had heard having words after the other lad thought it was ok to start slamming clubs into the ground.

 

[Ken_A]

From your description it sounds like a penalty. Unless for some reason that was the only way he could get into the tree??

He could have easily taken a stance without touching the tree, however, he would have had a dodgy stance and prob not been able to hit a full shot at the green.

 

[chrisd]

So, you are not entitled to a "proper" stance

I disagree, you can have a proper stance as long as you don't try (or go out of your way) to improve the swingpath of the club unnecessarily.

In the situation as described I would say NO PENALTY.

I should have included this bit from "Decisions as well

Thus, in taking his stance for the selected stroke, the player should
select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit. What is fair must be determined in the light of all the circumstances.


Still dont think the circumstances as describen were a penalty??


Chris

 

[Robobum]

From your description it sounds like a penalty. Unless for some reason that was the only way he could get into the tree??

He could have easily taken a stance without touching the tree, however, he would have had a dodgy stance and prob not been able to hit a full shot at the green.

This is one situation where having the rule book wouldn't help too much. The argument would be over whether what he did consituted taking his stance fairly. If, as I understand your description, he had to bend down below the branch to get it to sit on his back before standing up so the branch was now out of the way......penalty (IMO)

 

[Fyldewhite]

A better explanation after looking at Decisions on the Rules of Golf on the R and A web site


Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.
• standing on a branch to prevent it interfering with the backswing or stroke.
• hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds for the same purpose.
• bending with a hand a branch obscuring the ball after the stance has been taken.
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch.



So, you are not entitled to a "proper" stance and only to move things enough to be able to play the ball - not necessarily how and to where you would want to play it

Hope this helps, and yes, probably a penalty!


Chris

Just above that bit in the decisions is this.....

Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:
backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.

Now, I'm surprised that there's no penalty even if the sappling breaks but to me this seems to be covering the situation described and IMO "no penalty". It would have to be the only reasonable way to get into position to play the ball though.

 

[Ken_A]

What is fair must be determined in the light of all the circumstances.

Still dont think the circumstances as describen were a penalty??

So is it fair that he hits into the trees (trying for a massive drive) then gets a shot at the green (in 2) because he bends the trees when he could have taken a stance and punched out?

 

[chrisd]

He could have easily taken a stance without touching the tree, however, he would have had a dodgy stance and prob not been able to hit a full shot at the green.

Definite penalty!



Chris

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Sounds like a penalty to me.

 

[JustOne]

Just above that bit in the decisions is this.....

Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:
backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.

^
^
^
Thank you. That'll do for me, no penalty.