No Appeal from Saltman

lie detectors are notoriously ineffective, to pass you only have to believe what you're saying.

if Saltman believes that the way he marks the ball is right then he will also believe that he hasn't cheated.
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Spot on.....So let’s get something clear….no one has officially said the other two done wrong, not even Saltman. I see a situation where if Saltman continues to protest his innocence then more and more people will doubt the other two guys and that’s what he’s achieving right now, enough doubt for individuals to let it go.

Not one person has come up with some conspiracy theory, not a hint, and we would need one for there to be any other outcome. No one is questioning the integrity of the other two guys and I’m sure the other two would have had a grilling from the committee to make sure all was watertight.

I accept all the above so Saltman is a cheat, or he is that dumb that he thinks he’s done no wrong, hence the reason he is protesting his innocence.
 
What I find it so hard to comprehend is how a pro can / could find it so difficult to mark his ball correctly!! Surely that is one of the most easier parts to the game?
 
that's the risk you take. as it stands he has a 3 month ban - case closed, by appealing you open the case again, you may have the ban overturned or reduced or the appeals committee may decide that the earlier ban was too lenient. happens in more than golf
 
Its not for 2 fellow players to 'pull him up' at all, and particularly NOt during their round, when any confrontation would only serve to wreck their own round too.

I think they acted entirely correctly, but as we dont know the full story, its hard to know.

If the stories about 'how he marked his ball' are true, then any Pro would know its clearly incorrect, so hes a 'Cheat'.

The fact that he had got away with it until now is the more surprising aspect to it perhaps.
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Totally disagree,if you catch someone cheating on the golf course and you have proof or a witness you confront them there and then when the proof is red hot and its dealt with.

If I knew someone was cheating it would have a detrimental effect on my game. Nip it in the bud there and then, the deed is done. They even have the advantage of having rules officials to hand so why wait till the end of the round????

Thats the bit I cant get my head round!
 
Craw - sure, in our little world thats what we'd do. But there would be a big stink out on course, and everyone's game would be shafted.

These guys are professionals, they dont want a commotion on the course that ruins everyone's rounds, they did exactly what they should, watched and discussed what they had both seen, until they were sure.
Then when round is finished, its reported.

I dont see whats wrong about that in any way.

Lets face it, how many Pro's would enjoy having to report such a matter anyway, let alone confront someone out on course, I dont blame them for biding time until they were 100% certain of what they had seen etc.

I'm quite sure the Tour have TV footage of Saltman in other events perhaps, so wouldnt have been hard to verify what he was doing surely ?
 
What if he didn't know it was cheating (unusual I know).

If told on the first offence, he could have taken a 2 shot penalty, and still maybe made the cut.

If I unwittingly fell foul of the rules, I'd want to know there and then, not get d/q'ed after the event.

If he wasn't doing it to cheat, and the first one to spot it had called a rules official over, then it could have been clarified on the spot, and appropriate action taken. He would then be viewed as misguided, and not as a cheat.
 
Marks ball to the side with Marker.

Replaces ball in front of Marker.

Half Inch gained on every putt.

Seems stupidly small amount of benefit to any perhaps, but I dont beleive there is a Pro out there that doesnt know that is wrong.
 
It has to be addressed at the time, professional event, monthly medal or bounce game. It needs to be addressed as soon as it comes to light, not at the end of the round when it can be disputed!!!!!!
 
Bollox.

More chance of a huge dispute if its tackled the first time you see it, but after 2 have seen it 5 times, it can hardly be disputed can it.?
 
You cannot expect a Pro to jeopardise their earnings and career to intervene during a round.

It is their livelihood you're talking about. Roof over their head, food on their table etc.

The onus is on the individual not to break the rules or cheat not on others to police it at the cost of their own game and careers.

At a higher level, it would be more likely for there to be a referee with the group to whom they could mention it to ask them to look at it. But with just the three of you plus caddies. That is too much to expect of them.

We are not talking about an accidental infringement either that lead to an unfair DQ, this was marking your ball to the side and replacing it behind. Once, perhaps (and it is a big perhaps) unintentional. More than that, cheating.
 
Bollox.

More chance of a huge dispute if its tackled the first time you see it, but after 2 have seen it 5 times, it can hardly be disputed can it.?
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Absolute s41te!

As soon as both players confirm it has happened it has to be addressed. If that means having to involve a referee then thats what has to happen.

Its quite clear by the lenient sentence that the European Tour are even undecided about the situation, if it was clear cut he'd have been banned for life not a token 3 months.
 
Its quite clear by the lenient sentence that the European Tour are even undecided about the situation, if it was clear cut he'd have been banned for life not a token 3 months.
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I don't think that's the case at all.

The European Tour admitted during the process that their own procedures and regulations weren't as good as they should be to comply with legal requirements and are updating them.

Coupled with the fact that there was no televisual evidence just the word of two of his competitors against his.

Bearing in mind we are talking about less than an inch and the potential conflict of interest as they potentially stood to gain financially from his failure, a decent QC would have had a field day with his two playing partners in court.

If they had banned him for 5 years, 10 years or for life, they would be effectively finishing his career. With substandard disciplinary rules, they would be open to legal challenge and, potentially, huge damages for loss of earnings, sponsorship and damages.

Can you imagine the potential career earnings for a Tour Pro? A loss in court could run into millions and millions in damages.

They have opted for a safe ban length which made it unlikely for him to take them to court but enough of a ban to say we believe that he cheated. It also gives them time to introduce proper disciplinary procedures to allow the Tour to handle such cases better in the future.

The stigma of being found guilty of cheating is huge in golf and will already deny him tournament invites for years to come as well as put off those companies who might have been interested in sponsoring him.

Make no mistake, whilst his ban may be relatively short, the consequences for his career will last his lifetime.
 
I don’t see why it wasn’t mentioned in the match? I wouldn’t watch someone cheat and then tittle tattle on him later, I would deal with the issue there and then. I guess they are a softer breed on these Mickey mouse tours.
 
Its quite clear by the lenient sentence that the European Tour are even undecided about the situation, if it was clear cut he'd have been banned for life not a token 3 months.
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I don't think that's the case at all.

The European Tour admitted during the process that their own procedures and regulations weren't as good as they should be to comply with legal requirements and are updating them.

Coupled with the fact that there was no televisual evidence just the word of two of his competitors against his.

Bearing in mind we are talking about less than an inch and the potential conflict of interest as they potentially stood to gain financially from his failure, a decent QC would have had a field day with his two playing partners in court.

If they had banned him for 5 years, 10 years or for life, they would be effectively finishing his career. With substandard disciplinary rules, they would be open to legal challenge and, potentially, huge damages for loss of earnings, sponsorship and damages.

Can you imagine the potential career earnings for a Tour Pro? A loss in court could run into millions and millions in damages.

They have opted for a safe ban length which made it unlikely for him to take them to court but enough of a ban to say we believe that he cheated. It also gives them time to introduce proper disciplinary procedures to allow the Tour to handle such cases better in the future.

The stigma of being found guilty of cheating is huge in golf and will already deny him tournament invites for years to come as well as put off those companies who might have been interested in sponsoring him.

Make no mistake, whilst his ban may be relatively short, the consequences for his career will last his lifetime.
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I'll refer you to my first post in this thread then sir, with regards to stigma!
 
Again you miss the point Craw - why should 2 Pro's effectively ruin their own rounds with a big scene out on course, which undoubtably there would have been.

Observe & report is totally understandable, which is what they did.

Ok, we'd do differently, but then we arent playing for our living are we ?
 
Why would it have to be a huge row?

They didn't need to accuse him of cheating. Just query the way he marks his ball, get him to demonstrate it, and then call a rules official if he does it wrong. If he demo's it correctly, then keep an eye out for the rest of the round.
 
Its quite clear by the lenient sentence that the European Tour are even undecided about the situation, if it was clear cut he'd have been banned for life not a token 3 months.
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I don't think that's the case at all.

The European Tour admitted during the process that their own procedures and regulations weren't as good as they should be to comply with legal requirements and are updating them.

Coupled with the fact that there was no televisual evidence just the word of two of his competitors against his.

Bearing in mind we are talking about less than an inch and the potential conflict of interest as they potentially stood to gain financially from his failure, a decent QC would have had a field day with his two playing partners in court.

If they had banned him for 5 years, 10 years or for life, they would be effectively finishing his career. With substandard disciplinary rules, they would be open to legal challenge and, potentially, huge damages for loss of earnings, sponsorship and damages.

Can you imagine the potential career earnings for a Tour Pro? A loss in court could run into millions and millions in damages.

They have opted for a safe ban length which made it unlikely for him to take them to court but enough of a ban to say we believe that he cheated. It also gives them time to introduce proper disciplinary procedures to allow the Tour to handle such cases better in the future.

The stigma of being found guilty of cheating is huge in golf and will already deny him tournament invites for years to come as well as put off those companies who might have been interested in sponsoring him.

Make no mistake, whilst his ban may be relatively short, the consequences for his career will last his lifetime.
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I'll refer you to my first post in this thread then sir, with regards to stigma!
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My point still stands about the European Tour being quite convinced of his guilt.

Their banning him for three months was a smart thing to do as it reduced the litigation risk and limited potential damages claims.

The length of ban has little to do with their belief of his guilt. The fact that they banned him has everything to do with their belief of his guilt.
 
Again you miss the point Craw - why should 2 Pro's effectively ruin their own rounds with a big scene out on course, which undoubtably there would have been.

Observe & report is totally understandable, which is what they did.

Ok, we'd do differently, but then we arent playing for our living are we ?
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How can it ruin their round, it would ruin my round and concentration more knowing I was going to have to watch every shot and ball marking episode of one of my partners.

It makes so much more sense to nip it in the bud there and then. As Murph has said, it is a simple thing to address at the time with both Mr Saltman and then a rules official if required.
 
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