Moving golf ball

[matt611]

The other day on the green my golf ball started moving without me touching it. I believe I am right in saying it is a penalty shot if the ball has been addressed (18-2b). As I had not grounded the club I was not penalised.

My question is if I had grounded the club and not touched the ball in my mind I would be virtually certain I did not cause the ball to move (exception to 18-2b) but is that enough, or is it for my competitors to be virtually certain?

And if there is no penalty do you play the ball from where it now lies?

Thanks

 

[Fyldewhite]

This rule changed at the last revision and I haven't looked this up so could be wrong but I'm pretty certain it has the be virtually certain that something else caused your ball to move as opposed to you just being certain you didn't......gust of wind or whatever. If that were the case then yes, play as it lies and no penalty

 

[duncan mackie]

The other day on the green my golf ball started moving without me touching it. I believe I am right in saying it is a penalty shot if the ball has been addressed (18-2b). As I had not grounded the club I was not penalised.

My question is if I had grounded the club and not touched the ball in my mind I would be virtually certain I did not cause the ball to move (exception to 18-2b) but is that enough, or is it for my competitors to be virtually certain?

And if there is no penalty do you play the ball from where it now lies?

Thanks

you seem to be contradicting yourself - easily done in the context of this particular rules issue.

probably easiest to consider how, and why, the rule has been (and continues to) evolve.

once upon a time....there were arguments over what caused the ball to move, and strangely this seemed more of an issue once the players had settled their club behind the ball! this led to a simple solution that involved the definition of addressing the ball and a complete presumption that if the ball moved after the player had addressed it he caused it to move......even when he clearly didn't (player waiting to putt, addresses ball and another players ball flies over, hits his and moves it being an extreme example.

so in their wisdom the ruling bodies decided to introduce the concept of it not being the players fault if it is known, or virtually certain, that he didn't cause it to move (can of worms ... open)

the latest guidance (new decision 18-2b/1) is that for the above to apply there must be the corollary - knowledge or virtual certainly as to what did cause it to move! this is the only difference between the situation that applies when the player has addressed the ball and any other situation on the course! you obviously don't have to have addressed the ball to cause it to move and there are equally obviously times when it will move and you couldn't possibly have caused it too.

in practice you are still dealing with a balance of probabilities (assuming the key question of fact is clear - whether it did move?) and you can only resolve it based on that.

possible examples to illustrate

windless day, rather long grass on greens, ball has been at rest for some considerable time and there's no melting ice, dew, or other conditions that change with time. player approaches ball and places his putter head on the ground close behind the ball - ball sets off and rolls down slope...and, of course, player immediately shouts 'I didn't do that'. The question to answer would be 'what did cause that then?'

windy day, leaves flying everywhere, fast tight greens and balls shaking visibly in the wind but hanging on - most of the time! player approaches ball and places his putter head on the ground close behind the ball - ball sets off and rolls down slope...and, of course, player immediately shouts 'I didn't do that'. If people are comfortable that the wind did do that then fine (if there's doubt then the committee will have to make a decision).

if the player causes it to move it must be replaced.

if the wind causes it then it's played as it lies.

other causes are detailed under rule 18

 

[woody69]

you seem to be contradicting yourself - easily done in the context of this particular rules issue.

probably easiest to consider how, and why, the rule has been (and continues to) evolve.

once upon a time....there were arguments over what caused the ball to move, and strangely this seemed more of an issue once the players had settled their club behind the ball! this led to a simple solution that involved the definition of addressing the ball and a complete presumption that if the ball moved after the player had addressed it he caused it to move......even when he clearly didn't (player waiting to putt, addresses ball and another players ball flies over, hits his and moves it being an extreme example.

so in their wisdom the ruling bodies decided to introduce the concept of it not being the players fault if it is known, or virtually certain, that he didn't cause it to move (can of worms ... open)

the latest guidance (new decision 18-2b/1) is that for the above to apply there must be the corollary - knowledge or virtual certainly as to what did cause it to move! this is the only difference between the situation that applies when the player has addressed the ball and any other situation on the course! you obviously don't have to have addressed the ball to cause it to move and there are equally obviously times when it will move and you couldn't possibly have caused it too.

in practice you are still dealing with a balance of probabilities (assuming the key question of fact is clear - whether it did move?) and you can only resolve it based on that.

possible examples to illustrate

windless day, rather long grass on greens, ball has been at rest for some considerable time and there's no melting ice, dew, or other conditions that change with time. player approaches ball and places his putter head on the ground close behind the ball - ball sets off and rolls down slope...and, of course, player immediately shouts 'I didn't do that'. The question to answer would be 'what did cause that then?'

windy day, leaves flying everywhere, fast tight greens and balls shaking visibly in the wind but hanging on - most of the time! player approaches ball and places his putter head on the ground close behind the ball - ball sets off and rolls down slope...and, of course, player immediately shouts 'I didn't do that'. If people are comfortable that the wind did do that then fine (if there's doubt then the committee will have to make a decision).

if the player causes it to move it must be replaced.

if the wind causes it then it's played as it lies.

other causes are detailed under rule 18

Excellent summation.

 

[atticusfinch]

My question is if I had grounded the club and not touched the ball in my mind I would be virtually certain I did not cause the ball to move (exception to 18-2b) but is that enough, or is it for my competitors to be virtually certain?

Their observations are among the things you can consider, but the final decision is yours. See decision 26-1/1.

You are the one who will be penalized if you are wrong.

 

[MashieNiblick]

once upon a time....there were arguments over what caused the ball to move, and strangely this seemed more of an issue once the players had settled their club behind the ball! this led to a simple solution that involved the definition of addressing the ball and a complete presumption that if the ball moved after the player had addressed it he caused it to move......even when he clearly didn't (player waiting to putt, addresses ball and another players ball flies over, hits his and moves it being an extreme example.

Wow surprised at that. Would have thought Rule 18-1 or 18-5 would have taken precedence in that kind of situation.

 

[Colin L]

Not really a matter of precedence. If another player's ball hit yours after you had addressed it, 18-5 would be the applicable rule to tell you how to proceed. At the same time, the fact that your ball was moved by another ball exonerates you in terms of a penalty under 18-2b.

 

[atticusfinch]

Not really a matter of precedence. If another player's ball hit yours after you had addressed it, 18-5 would be the applicable rule to tell you how to proceed. At the same time, the fact that your ball was moved by another ball exonerates you in terms of a penalty under 18-2b.

Known in some circles as redundancy.

 

[Colin L]

Known in some circles as redundancy.

What's redundant?

Anyway, it evidently can happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjR5B7ELt94

 

[duncan mackie]

Not really a matter of precedence. If another player's ball hit yours after you had addressed it, 18-5 would be the applicable rule to tell you how to proceed. At the same time, the fact that your ball was moved by another ball exonerates you in terms of a penalty under 18-2b.

your pm box is full Colin

 

[Colin L]

your pm box is full Colin

Thanks. I'll clear it.