Lateral Weight Shift at Transition.

[One Planer]

Something I'm dedicating quite a bit of time to at the minute.

Not so much the whole downswing, more the 'bump' or lateral weight shift at transition to the left.

The issue in my swing comes from a poor weight shift at transition. Not so much getting the weight left, but how I actually do it.

From the top of the back swing, as I have a poor lateral hip bump/shift I tend to rotate my weight forward, from my hips, from the top of the backswing, which (.... I think) throws my arms OTT and causes my bad shot as my shoulders follow my hips.

When I was working through the transition a few nights back at the range, something Charlie Wi said (... Yes, in the Stack & Tilt book) sprang to mind.

Charlie (.... I think it was Charlie Wi anyway) said he would place an iron on the floor in front of this toe line then try and get the feeling of sliding his hips along that line. This got me thinking.

Is this bump/lateral movement of the hips from the top, quite literally, on a line parallel to the ball-to-target line?

I only ask as when I make the, quite literally, lateral movement at transition I make a much better swing.

After checking last night (... Alignment stick through belt loops), when I make the lateral move with my hips from the top, my hips get back to square, my right shoulder lowers and my right elbow is tucked nicely. My lower half's rotation seems to take care of itself and the arms seem to drop on a much better plane. In fact, my arms seem to drop on their own.

I suppose what I'm looking to do is make a more lateral hip movement from the top of the backswing as opposed to simply rotating my hips.

Am I talking nonsense or is there some remnant of truth in there?

 

[Maninblack4612]

A while ago I read about some physicists who were constructing a model of the golf swing on the "dual pendulum" principle i.e. one pendulum formed by the shoulders & arms rotating at the top of the spine & the other being the club, rotating at the wrist. They found that the model didn't produce the expected swingspeed seen in a real human swing. When they studied a real swing more closely they incorporated a 6 inch lateral movement of the upper pivot point towards the hole. When they did the mathematical calculations this produced a swingspeed quite close to what an actual player achieved. Your proposed hip movement would produce the kind of lateral shift in the upper spine so I think you're working on the right lines.

 

[Foxholer]

I suppose what I'm looking to do is make a more lateral hip movement from the top of the backswing as opposed to simply rotating my hips.

I would say... Yes.

Am I talking nonsense or is there some remnant of truth in there?

I would say... Yes!

 

[London mike 61]

I prefer a more natural weight shift in the downswing.

At address I put my weight central but the weight on my right foot is on the INSIDE of the foot so that as I take the backswing I am not shifting outside of my central weight distribution.

As the downswing commences there is no discernible feeling of weight transfer it just happens naturally because you are effectively pushing off with your right foot .

Tom Watson advocates kicking your right knee in at address but I found it suffice to just have the feeling of the weight on the inside of the foot.

All I can tell you is it works for me.

 

[the_coach]

Something I'm dedicating quite a bit of time to at the minute.

Not so much the whole downswing, more the 'bump' or lateral weight shift at transition to the left.

The issue in my swing comes from a poor weight shift at transition. Not so much getting the weight left, but how I actually do it.

From the top of the back swing, as I have a poor lateral hip bump/shift I tend to rotate my weight forward, from my hips, from the top of the backswing, which (.... I think) throws my arms OTT and causes my bad shot as my shoulders follow my hips.
Am I talking nonsense or is there some remnant of truth in there?

You never want to turn/clear you hips at start of transition, just gives you the dreaded 'spin out' & this will as you suspect throw your right shoulder out towards ball/target line along with your arms & club, the shaft gets too steep & you'll always suffer from an out to in swing path, over the shaft plane & over the hand path, swing will also always be way too steep.


Simply turning hips left straight off at transition you'll never be able to get the hand path, club or body in the right delivery position for the best impact conditions.


First move down from transition has to be lead from the ground up. Although thinking of a small lateral hip movement may help as a swing thought from the top. (as you'll know, I have detailed this before in the 'disassociation thread' it's all part of the same thing)


As ever the move going back from takeaway has a great bearing on being able to be able to make the right sequence back down at transition.


The biggest killer of a good transition move (assuming grip, address set-up & posture is correct) is a move off the ball to the right of your center of gravity during first takeaway, be that a only slight lateral move off right or worse a big sway right. This will make a good transition move from top extremely difficult if not impossible.


You have to keep the weight going back, on the inside of the right foot whilst still maintaining some flex in the right knee to stop a lateral move/sway right off the ball.


Best way to practice & cure both the first move back & first move down is with a couple alignment sticks.


'The Two Stick Drill'

On grass push one stick touching your right heel & running up middle right leg but at an angle so it touches your right hip at address. (Making sure it's pushed in the ground far enough so you won't catch your right elbow on it on a downswing!)


The other stick is pushed in at your left heel but runs up middle of left leg, vertically, so it will be some 21/2" to 3" away from your left hip at top of stick.


You make a takeaway, backswing & body pivot & your right hip turns back inside the stick without any sway right pushing the stick away from your right hip.


At top of swing at transition there's a feeling of weight into the ground through the left foot vertically, this moves your left knee back in line over foot (as I've spoken about before).


At this point the 'gap' between the left knee & the right knee should widen (at this point it's important the still flexed right knee feels that it's being left in place left knee moving away from the right, something Sir Nick Faldo speaks about often)


The right knee doesn't/shouldn't 'kick in' from start of transition, at transition it still needs to feel stable/still. It's only when the shaft gets to delivery position parallel to the ground & the elbow is at the right hip (as Hogan) that the right knee 'kicks in', It's this I think Watson was referring too but it often seems to get misinterpreted & folks try to kick it in, unnaturally sooner at transition start, it shouldn't.


This widening again of the space between the knees, is the 'squat move' you see every Tour player, elite golfer make. (to the best of my knowledge there is no exception to this)


This moves the left hip laterally some 2" to 3". This is where the other stick comes in, in the 2 stick drill, your left hip moves to touch it.


As at transition the weight into foot, left knee aligning back up, gap between left & right knee widening moves the left hip to touch this stick, only then on touching the left hip to stick should you then turn & clear the left hip.


You also want to keep in mind you don't want to 'jump' on your left side & really slide your left hip laterally ways too much as this will put your arms & club unit a ways too far back behind you and you'll end up either nearly flipping or flipping at impact & presenting too much loft through impact & creating too much height without any real forward penetration to the shot.


This is why you just want to touch the left stick in the drill before turning & clearing, you don't want to really whack through the stick pushing it angled to target, as that will just get the club stuck to far behind you.

 

[JustOne]

A bad setup can lead to bad weight shift.

It's important that the head doesn't move targetwards (stays behind the ball), lots of ams that try to shift their weight actually end up getting ahead of the ball with their head and don't have a decent spine tilt away from the target or their hands enough forwards.

Here's GMac, he's quite extreme but see how his hands are under his left eye at address and miles ahead at impact

 

[Oddsocks]

I prefer a more natural weight shift in the downswing.

At address I put my weight central but the weight on my right foot is on the INSIDE of the foot so that as I take the backswing I am not shifting outside of my central weight distribution.

As the downswing commences there is no discernible feeling of weight transfer it just happens naturally because you are effectively pushing off with your right foot .

Tom Watson advocates kicking your right knee in at address but I found it suffice to just have the feeling of the weight on the inside of the foot.

All I can tell you is it works for me.

This is pretty much hoe my pro has me doing it, weight on the inside of the rear foot and brace from that.

 

[One Planer]

Thanks for the replies so far all :thup:

From my perspective, which is probably wrong , I make a centred backswing and don't move off the ball.
In this instance I guess I would need less of a lateral movement than someone who does move off the ball in their back swing (?).

I watched an interesting clip on the Golf Channel (... With Michael Breed) talking about what is better, a turn or slide. Made for, in my view, interesting viewing, even though it is only a minute and half long :smirk:

[video=youtube;KQaA96RNNRo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQaA96RNNRo[/video]

From my personal point of view, I personally think I need more turn in my transition. Obviously I need to move my weight left, this is a given, but with making a centred backswing, the lateral movement would be made in conjuction with added rotation.

 

[CMAC]

listen to the_coach, he really knows his stuff:thup:

 

[Foxholer]

listen to the_coach, he really knows his stuff:thup:

Certainly agree. But as the guy in the vid makes the point, getting the movement right all depends on the individual.

That's where the 'quick fix' by your own coach actually works - and is not simply a band-aid. If the symptoms are ... then it's because ...; so do .... a little more/less.

That part is all about getting the sequencing and quantities right - and getting the body and brain used to the sequencing. It really only comes with practice!

 

[Albanach]

the_coach - you got any images to go with your description? Would be interested to see this...

 

[the_coach]

the_coach - you got any images to go with your description? Would be interested to see this...

Not exactly sure which of things things I said you're thinking of.

Here's something that goes into how the lower body starts the transition, so the sequence works in the right order, & the golfer then won't spin out with the hips which throws the upper body arms & club over the top leading to an out to in swing path with all the pain that can & does bring.
Shows how ground force weight into the lead leg works.
Gives a few exercises to help.
If this isn't what you're referring too, you'll have to say what exactly you were asking about.

[video=youtube_share;L2GDUGL_GTc]http://youtu.be/L2GDUGL_GTc[/video]

 

[rossymcg]

the_coach - you got any images to go with your description? Would be interested to see this...

This is my coach explaining how we start the down swing, we don't talk about any lateral movement in the swing we try to eliminate it
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaBeVGbvnwI

 

[the_coach]

This is my coach explaining how we start the down swing, we don't talk about any lateral movement in the swing we try to eliminate it
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NaBeVGbvnwI

That's fine to a point I guess, if you have some lateral movement & weight into the lead foot to start transition.
If you don't the difficulty arises if the lower body, just turns first, tends to make all handicap golfers 'spin out'.

Each to their own I guess but not a fan of moving both knees towards target at the same time (can't think on any other teacher that would use this in particular to be honest, as it can tend to move the right hip in the way of the arms/hands & club coming down.
Certainly both knees moving towards target at the same time is definitely not something you'll see happen in any of the Tour players, as on transition the left knee moves away from the right which holds it's position momentarily so the space between the knees expands, which is why you see something that looks like a squat in all top golfers. It's only in the delivery position after the right elbow moves close past the right hip in the downswing do you see the right hip, right thigh, right knee move through towards target.

 

[Foxholer]

This is my coach explaining how we start the down swing, we don't talk about any lateral movement in the swing we try to eliminate it

So can you explain what moving the knees (together, in the way he indicates) does?
As far as i can see, it's a lateral (and rotational) action. It's just that instead of focusing on the hips moving first, it's focusing on 'ground up' movement - which causes the hips to move. I've not seen that 'knees together' focus either and it's not what happens in Senior's swings either! Big lad!

 

[Albanach]

Not exactly sure which of things things I said you're thinking of.

Here's something that goes into how the lower body starts the transition, so the sequence works in the right order, & the golfer then won't spin out with the hips which throws the upper body arms & club over the top leading to an out to in swing path with all the pain that can & does bring.
Shows how ground force weight into the lead leg works.
Gives a few exercises to help.
If this isn't what you're referring too, you'll have to say what exactly you were asking about.

[video=youtube_share;L2GDUGL_GTc]http://youtu.be/L2GDUGL_GTc[/video]

Sorry coach should have said it's the set up of the two stick drill described...

 

[the_coach]

Sorry coach should have said it's the set up of the two stick drill described...

Haven't got any with the left & right stick in position I can show you, it's something I used as a workstation for a couple of folks i've worked with but don't have their permission to use the video.

Here is a vid showing the position of the right stick up & it's actually touching the right hip, so the right hip is turned back inside the stick so you feel the hip turn into the hip socket, there's no sway laterally to the right at all that would push into the stick. It's purely to work on the hip turn going back (as if someone has hold of your right pants hip pocket & is pulling it backwards behind you) to take away any lateral movement to the right off the ball.

Ignore the stick at an angle in front of the ball at an angle that's to help have the strike on plane & under, but you have to have a pretty sound swing motion not to damage your hands through the strike with this stick position.
So unless you're pretty efficient in your swing motion to & through impact I wouldn't recommend hitting balls this way! If you feel you are then fine, but have plenty slower rehearsals first if you plan to use this plane impact stick position!!

[video=youtube_share;-5D7xuoVX8M]http://youtu.be/-5D7xuoVX8M[/video]


Will look to see if I can find something showing the left side stick position. But essentially it differs from this right stick. In that the left is placed in the ground touching the target side of the left heel & is vertical, so with your normal address position this stick at the left hip level is some 2 to 3 inches away from your left hip.

So when you get to the top of your backswing the first move is pressure in the left foot (arms hands & club 'feel' as if they stay fractionally still at this top position you 'feel' as if your back stays 'looking' at the target, but we're talking about milliseconds here so it is just a 'feeling') with the pressure simultaneously the left knee moves towards target which take your left hip up to touch (not push into or over)the stick, so it touches & immediately turns & clears.

When you first try to do this, if you do, just use an 8i or 7i, tee the ball up low to remove any anxiety about strike & swing at only 70%, don't worry overly at first about distance or direction, just get the timing & feeling the move down, as you get more used to it, you can increase the speed up to 80% say.

The drill is all about 'feeling' how the hips turn back not sway right, then how the transition 'feels' starting from the left foot, ground fore up, left knee, left hip small lateral 'bump' to stick before it turns & clears.
May take you a while to get it down right, I won't pretend it's that easy to do right, but if you get it your ball striking will improve greatly.

 

[rossymcg]

It's not for me to explain that, I don't claim to be a coach, I'll never give advice or my thoughts on something unless I'm qualified to do so. I'll only tell of my experiences and what I've been taught,I just do as my coach tells me,
When I've worked on this leg movement its in conjunction with a drop in to the slot movement of the arms and club, from that position then it's just a case of the body continuing on its axis to impact and through the ball, a rule I'm constantly reminded is sternum stays over the ball and the movement is a coil against a solid right leg,(the right leg should act as a post in concrete)
Any lateral movement has to be re-replicated which what I've been taught is just something else that can go wrong,

 

[rossymcg]

So can you explain what moving the knees (together, in the way he indicates) does?
As far as i can see, it's a lateral (and rotational) action. It's just that instead of focusing on the hips moving first, it's focusing on 'ground up' movement - which causes the hips to move. I've not seen that 'knees together' focus either and it's not what happens in Senior's swings either! Big lad!

It's not for me to explain that, I don't claim to be a coach, I'll never give advice or my thoughts on something unless I'm qualified to do so. I'll only tell of my experiences and what I've been taught,I just do as my coach tells me,
When I've worked on this leg movement its in conjunction with a drop in to the slot movement of the arms and club, from that position then it's just a case of the body continuing on its axis to impact and through the ball, a rule I'm constantly reminded is sternum stays over the ball and the movement is a coil against a solid right leg,(the right leg should act as a post in concrete)
Any lateral movement has to be re-replicated which what I've been taught is just something else that can go wrong,

 

[rossymcg]

That's fine to a point I guess, if you have some lateral movement & weight into the lead foot to start transition.
If you don't the difficulty arises if the lower body, just turns first, tends to make all handicap golfers 'spin out'.

Each to their own I guess but not a fan of moving both knees towards target at the same time (can't think on any other teacher that would use this in particular to be honest, as it can tend to move the right hip in the way of the arms/hands & club coming down.
Certainly both knees moving towards target at the same time is definitely not something you'll see happen in any of the Tour players, as on transition the left knee moves away from the right which holds it's position momentarily so the space between the knees expands, which is why you see something that looks like a squat in all top golfers. It's only in the delivery position after the right elbow moves close past the right hip in the downswing do you see the right hip, right thigh, right knee move through towards target.

Dave's got players on all tours with out going in to names, players on winning Ryder/solheim cup teams, multiple winners on tour, he's in the golf monthly top 25 coaches,
I can only say my experience working with him is more consistent lower scoring, something must be right with his method