Is It Time To Ban The Isle of Man TT Races?

[Deleted Member 1156]

You are right. The same broad question applies to parachute jumpers, out of condition 5K runners or Sunday league footballers, people who eat, smoke or drink too much, but there are a range of different issues applying to some of those. Smokers pay a large amount of extra tax and duty to the state for the privilege of smoking (see also drinking). Bikers don't.

I guess the issue is, where do we draw the line at what is acceptable and what isn't? All the things listed above are dangerous, you could possibly include sex as well as plenty of people have died of heart attacks.

How sterile do we want to make our lives? There needs to be some fun and the bottom line is the TT riders are doing it through choice.

 

[Ethan]

I guess the issue is, where do we draw the line at what is acceptable and what isn't? All the things listed above are dangerous, you could possibly include sex as well as plenty of people have died of heart attacks.

How sterile do we want to make our lives? There needs to be some fun and the bottom line is the TT riders are doing it through choice.

Sure they are doing it through choice but exercising choice involve taking responsibility too. The NHS can choose not to give you a liver transplant if you have knackered the first one through alcohol. It was foreseeable. Rattling around country roads at speed with a thin helmet covering your brain carries a foreseeable risk too.

 

[harpo_72]

Riders choice, I don't watch it bit squeamish. Take away the out let and what would happen?
Also I know we saw a death in the the MotoGP but we often see cyclists falling off and walking away. Which really rarely happens on the road.
Not sure why bikes have to be so fast though....

 

[shewy]

You would have to ban every form of road racing not just the TT as there are fatality's in nearly all of them at some point. Personally I have no problem with it, they know the risks and probably the costs are covered by the insurance policy they must have (I'm guessing there), yes it's sad but a moto GP2 rider died 2 weeks ago, a GP rider died last year, so we ban that also? People have died playing football, probably more deaths in football than motor racing do we also ban that, also while were at it lets ban all equestrian events as I've seen lots of broken bones and a few fatalities at that as well.
I don't want to live in a nanny state which dictates what I can and can't do.

 

[Hobbit]

You would have to ban every form of road racing not just the TT as there are fatality's in nearly all of them at some point. Personally I have no problem with it, they know the risks and probably the costs are covered by the insurance policy they must have (I'm guessing there), yes it's sad but a moto GP2 rider died 2 weeks ago, a GP rider died last year, so we ban that also? People have died playing football, probably more deaths in football than motor racing do we also ban that, also while were at it lets ban all equestrian events as I've seen lots of broken bones and a few fatalities at that as well.
I don't want to live in a nanny state which dictates what I can and can't do.

Bit of a difference between 5 deaths at the TT and one in a full season at WSB or Moto GP.

Slide down the road at a purpose built circuit is one thing, whereas high kerbs and dry stone walls are a different matter.

There is a whole host of very good reasons why the TT doesn't form part of any of the major race series anymore.

 

[freddielong]

Bit of a difference between 5 deaths at the TT and one in a full season at WSB or Moto GP.

Slide down the road at a purpose built circuit is one thing, whereas high kerbs and dry stone walls are a different matter.

There is a whole host of very good reasons why the TT doesn't form part of any of the major race series anymore.

That is true which again means the only people who race want to race, they no longer have to to give them the chance to win the world title.

Most road racing involves walls roads and kerbs that is not unusual to the Isle of Man.

A lot has been made this year of the deaths of two young riders who where expected to be at the TT and died at other road circuits in the months preceeding the TT, so deaths in road racing is not unique to the Isle of Man, in fact Joey Dunlop one of the TT greats died racing in northern island.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That is true which again means the only people who race want to race, they no longer have to to give them the chance to win the world title.

Most road racing involves walls roads and kerbs that is not unusual to the Isle of Man.

A lot has been made this year of the deaths of two young riders who where expected to be at the TT and died at other road circuits in the months preceeding the TT, so deaths in road racing is not unique to the Isle of Man, in fact Joey Dunlop one of the TT greats died racing in Estonia ​.

I agree. Since 1976 nobody has been forced to race there.

As for "allowing" people to race, surely there is risk in so many sports and pastimes and provided these are known to (willing) participants it is for the racer to decide.

 

[freddielong]

That is true which again means the only people who race want to race, they no longer have to to give them the chance to win the world title.

Most road racing involves walls roads and kerbs that is not unusual to the Isle of Man.

A lot has been made this year of the deaths of two young riders who where expected to be at the TT and died at other road circuits in the months preceeding the TT, so deaths in road racing is not unique to the Isle of Man, in fact Joey Dunlop one of the TT greats died racing in Estonia ​.

Sorry it was Estonia had it in my head it was Northern Ireland doesn't change the point though, he didn't die at the TT despite competing for many years.

 

[pokerjoke]

With all due respect paul, WE don't allow motorcyclists to be killed every year on the Isle of Man, they choose to participate themselves, they are as closely monitored and aided as is possible and they all know the risks, but they consider it the Holy Grail of motorcycling and the purest form of racing. Who are we to deny them that choice; and where do we stop?

if you want to talk about a sad and avoidable waste of life, lets start raising the standard of driving in the UK so that the ordinary, average motorcyclist is safer; in 2013 (probably the most recent year for which statistics are available), 331 motorcyclists were killed and 4,866 seriously injured, the majority of which will be involved in accidents involving cars who didn't see them (or couldn't be bothered to look).

Out of interest Paul, do you ride a motorbike?

Your first point is fine but your second is not imo.

How do you know people couldn't be bothered to look that's just speculation on your part.

Just recently I have had at least 4 bikes go past me at well over a 100 miles an hour.
I saw 2 but not the others and to be honest there was not much risk on there part as they were fairly straight roads,however my point would be if they take risks on straight roads at high speeds who knows what they do on windy roads.

Blaming car users for all bike accidents or deaths is just nieve although I'm sure that was not what you meant exactly.

 

[User62651]

if you want to talk about a sad and avoidable waste of life, lets start raising the standard of driving in the UK so that the ordinary, average motorcyclist is safer; in 2013 (probably the most recent year for which statistics are available), 331 motorcyclists were killed and 4,866 seriously injured, the majority of which will be involved in accidents involving cars who didn't see them (or couldn't be bothered to look).

This comment is pretty unfair, as a car/pickup driver I always look hard, if you cant see a bike you cant see it, I would take issue with bikers travelling at crazy speeds, overtaking on bends, applying mad acceleration forces to do that nipping between cars thing they all seem to do, overtaking between lanes of stationery cars and sitting 1 metre behind the car whilst prowling for the next unsafe overtake. Many dont wear high viz either.
I rode a bike for a while in my twenties and stopped because I figured I'd end up in a crash, didn't feel I was a good enough rider, I have seen it from both sides and the bikers in my view are every bit as culpable in accidents as 4 wheel vehicle or lorry drivers.
The police allow some routes to be biker zones - Aberdeen up Deeside down to Blairgowrie being one I know, there are beware bike signs all over and its chosen because its so twisty and the bikers like that and go as fast as they like and never ever get stopped by police...fact. It like go here and drive as you wish.
As for TT I cant comment, never been and as others have said they know the risks, maybe there should be an insurance requirement in place for participants over and above their normal bike insurance, premiums would need to be awfully high methinks given the appauling accident stats.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I'm not against bikes, no I don't have a license, yes been all over Europe watching it, Donnington, Spa, Hockenheim, Am Nurburing, I am talking about this one event, I understand they are doing what they love, seriously, what No is unacceptable, 6/7/10/15 or is it irrelevant as it's their choice?

Fair enough mate, I only ask because a lot of people don't get or understand bikes and consequently want them banned or have a prejudicial view about them, just trying to get some perspective on your viewpoint.

As to the number, it is irrelevant to me as it is their choice to participate, they're big boys, they know the risks.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Your first point is fine but your second is not imo.

How do you know people couldn't be bothered to look that's just speculation on your part.

Just recently I have had at least 4 bikes go past me at well over a 100 miles an hour.
I saw 2 but not the others and to be honest there was not much risk on there part as they were fairly straight roads,however my point would be if they take risks on straight roads at high speeds who knows what they do on windy roads.

Blaming car users for all bike accidents or deaths is just nieve although I'm sure that was not what you meant exactly.

This comment is pretty unfair, as a car/pickup driver I always look hard, if you cant see a bike you cant see it, I would take issue with bikers travelling at crazy speeds, overtaking on bends, applying mad acceleration forces to do that nipping between cars thing they all seem to do, overtaking between lanes of stationery cars and sitting 1 metre behind the car whilst prowling for the next unsafe overtake. Many dont wear high viz either.
I rode a bike for a while in my twenties and stopped because I figured I'd end up in a crash, didn't feel I was a good enough rider, I have seen it from both sides and the bikers in my view are every bit as culpable in accidents as 4 wheel vehicle or lorry drivers.

No it's not just speculation on my part, it's something I came across daily riding a motorbike at work and dealing with the incidents caused by the standards of driving. This makes interesting reading;

http://www.mc-ams.co.uk/blog/accident-statistics-ugly-overview/

At no point in that post did I say that car drivers were responsible for all motorbike accidents. Some motorcyclists are their own (and other motorcyclists) worst enemy and I have no sympathy for those that are responsible for their own downfall, but the majority, in my experience and opinion, are not.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

BiM - I live near a Roman road much loved by bikers, A697 in Northumberland. I see many lunatic motorcyclists and it is never a surprise when another death appears on the local news. Equally I shudder at how often car drivers pull out at a junction nearly taking out a motorcyclist. Motorcyclists are just so fragile, no cage to cushion and protect them. I guess that is part of the problem with the TT, when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

This comment is pretty unfair, as a car/pickup driver I always look hard, if you cant see a bike you cant see it, I would take issue with bikers travelling at crazy speeds, overtaking on bends, applying mad acceleration forces to do that nipping between cars thing they all seem to do, overtaking between lanes of stationery cars and sitting 1 metre behind the car whilst prowling for the next unsafe overtake. Many dont wear high viz either.
I rode a bike for a while in my twenties and stopped because I figured I'd end up in a crash, didn't feel I was a good enough rider, I have seen it from both sides and the bikers in my view are every bit as culpable in accidents as 4 wheel vehicle or lorry drivers.
The police allow some routes to be biker zones - Aberdeen up Deeside down to Blairgowrie being one I know, there are beware bike signs all over and its chosen because its so twisty and the bikers like that and go as fast as they like and never ever get stopped by police...fact. It like go here and drive as you wish.
As for TT I cant comment, never been and as others have said they know the risks, maybe there should be an insurance requirement in place for participants over and above their normal bike insurance, premiums would need to be awfully high methinks given the appauling accident stats.

Your comment seems to suggest that you resent the motorcyclist' greater manoeuvrability and facility for not being held up in traffic.

At 67 I no longer ride but in the past I experienced car drivers pulling into my path through traffic jams and shouting abuse at me all because I was able to keep moving whilst they could not.

Their actions could best be described as childish if it were not for the fact that they were dangerous.

 

[Hobbit]

BiM - I live near a Roman road much loved by bikers, A697 in Northumberland. I see many lunatic motorcyclists and it is never a surprise when another death appears on the local news. Equally I shudder at how often car drivers pull out at a junction nearly taking out a motorcyclist. Motorcyclists are just so fragile, no cage to cushion and protect them. I guess that is part of the problem with the TT, when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.

Spot on!

There's old bikers, but not old bold bikers. I rode from '77 to '13, the last accident, on ice, was in '82. In the last few years I had a number of drivers pull out in front of me a year, rather than the odd one a year.

Track days were where I had fun, where there's room if you get it wrong. Country road twisties isn't really the place to do it. At least at the TT they don't get cars coming the other way.

 

[Andy]

As Steve Parish says, speed does not kill. Slowing down in time does. Every single rider knows the risks and accepts the challenge of the road racing circuit.

You cannot compare Road racing to BSB, WSBK or even MotoGP, it's two entirely different beasts.

Plus to gain your race licence for the TT or even the NW200 is a test in itself, you don't just turn up. You have to prove you can ride at speed and maintain that speed.

Let the racing continue.

 

[Blue in Munich]

OK, you enjoy it, you think you understand the risks. If you are happy taking the risk of killing yourself, fine. Make sure you carry a donor card.

Do you think it is also reasonable to expect society to pay to (literally) scrape you off the road, airlift you to the nearest trauma centre and pay for several weeks of intensive care?

As I understand it, competitors contribute towards their own medical costs via the ACU. I think you'll find the fans chip in a bit as well;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-28164803

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-23464025

You are right. The same broad question applies to parachute jumpers, out of condition 5K runners or Sunday league footballers, people who eat, smoke or drink too much, but there are a range of different issues applying to some of those. Smokers pay a large amount of extra tax and duty to the state for the privilege of smoking (see also drinking). Bikers don't.

I think you'll find that bikers pay VAT on the cost of their machines and parts so they do pay extra tax to the state. They may also make a contribution as smokers or drinkers, so I'm not sure that argument holds water.

While we are discussing the economics, should we not factor in the VAT or other duty on the cost of hotel rooms, meals, drinks, petrol and anything else that the IoM TT causes to go into the Chancellor's coffers before we condemn it to death on the basis that it costs the NHS too much? If there's a case for banning it because it's bringing the NHS to its knees single-handedly fair enough, but I'm not sure that the economics would support your case.

 

[User62651]

Your comment seems to suggest that you resent the motorcyclist' greater manoeuvrability and facility for not being held up in traffic.

At 67 I no longer ride but in the past I experienced car drivers pulling into my path through traffic jams and shouting abuse at me all because I was able to keep moving whilst they could not.

Their actions could best be described as childish if it were not for the fact that they were dangerous.

No resentment at all, dont see too many bikers uo here tbh, and there is little traffic where I live in rural Scotland. I guess the shouting/abuse was in England somewhere, SE I expect?

 

[Blue in Munich]

BiM - I live near a Roman road much loved by bikers, A697 in Northumberland. I see many lunatic motorcyclists and it is never a surprise when another death appears on the local news. Equally I shudder at how often car drivers pull out at a junction nearly taking out a motorcyclist. Motorcyclists are just so fragile, no cage to cushion and protect them. I guess that is part of the problem with the TT, when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.

LT, can't argue with any of that. As you say, the motorcyclist is the most vulnerable party physically & will always come off worse. Given the speeds involved at the TT and the lack of run off areas it's almost inevitable that it will end in tears if it goes wrong, but the circumstances that lead to that are part of the appeal to the participants, and it is their choice.

 

[SammmeBee]

Yes - complete joke.