interesting local rule

[USER1999]

Played at 'The Grove' yesterday on a twilight. Really good golf course, in superb condition. Played my usual mix of good and bad, 48 out (with an ugly 8 on a 210 yard par 3 with a stream), 39 back for a 15 over 87. Not too bad off the championship tees, first time out on the course.

Anyway, looking at the card this morning, I notice the following local rule:

Long rough rule: If a ball is deemed lost by all players in a group, the player may drop a ball under penalty of 1 stroke, two club lengths from the margin of the rough nearest to where the ball may have been lost.

Now this is obviously to speed up play, and stop people from walking back to the tee, etc. Even if a provisional was played from the tee, you still have to waste time looking for it if it was also less than perfect.

Bear in mind the long rough was about 2ft tall, and you could loose a tiger in there.

Sensible rule in my view, and one which could be adopted by a lot of courses.

 

[birdieman]

Don't agree, I'd suggest it's not legal in competition golf, might be ok in a bounce game. This local rule should not be nescessary - if you hit in in the rough, play a provisional ball, if you hit it in there again, play another provisional ball....simple as.
So many players have this ridiculous optimism (I'd call it denial) as they wander down the hole never to find that ball again then hold everyone up as they go back to the tee. Play however many provisonal balls it takes.
If the Grove want to deal with that issue properly they should have long rough marked with red stakes and call it a lateral hazard so players can drop under penalty at the point their ball crosses the hazard if they lose the ball.
I'd rather the rules of golf were adhered to.
Local rules are for things like stones in bunkers or crossing roads etc not changing the basic rules of the game.

 

[Dodger]

This is a rule we use on our Golf Holidays abroad,works well for bounce games but it cannot be used in competition golf?!

 

[USER1999]

I think that a rule which speeds up play is a good thing, as 4 hour rounds are now the norm, which is too long. Now if a large amount of this is spent looking for balls, that is an area which needs to be addressed, but not in a way which means no rough or hazards, but in a considered way that still punishes a wayward drive.

Yes, you could surrond rough with red stakes, but the course would look terrible.

Looking for 5 (or more) provisionals, in order to 'finish the hole' would take ages, and when someone has paid a £150 green fee, they are going to finish the hole, and not walk on.

The Rand A ruling on lost balls is fine for the pros, as they have ball spotters, and so rarely loose balls, or spend time looking for them. For the rest of us, with more limited time, this is a daft rule, especially when the course is busy. Walking back to the tee takes ages, and holds up the course (even if the group immediately behind is waved through).

Yes, some people are over optimistic on what they think would be findable (but often the ones you think are no hopers are found straight away, and the ones which just trickle off the fairway are the ones which vanish without trace).

 

[John_Findlay]

I don't think the Grove are allowed to do this under the laws of the game, are they?

I haven't checked the rule book but I remember that clubs can set certain local rules but not others, obviously. I didn't think this would be one that falls within the permitted category. Rough is rough. It's not a hazard. The penalty for a lost ball should be stroke and distance, not stroke alone. Play a provisional like the rest of us.

 

[USER1999]

Under rule 33-8, no, they can't. Local rules are for abnormal conditions, not long grass.
A rule of golf cannot be over ruled by a local rule.

 

[Herbie]

I agree with a lot of whats been said here but there are occasions where local rules can apply in comps, after all the position of a tee should one be GUR is in fact a local one.

I too believe it should not be necessary to go through all this as its golfers who cause the probs in the first place.
It could all be simplified in my view, rough of this type should be deemed a hazard, is there such a difference between finding your ball unplayable and simply dropping out for 1 stroke at a agreed point? Once youve dropped out your score is damaged and in comps can be enough to put you out of contention especially at the top levels.Dropping out doesnt slow play.

We have many unfair rules in this game like when you hit OB from the tee and take your 3rd from the tee and still have the yardage to cover yet you can hit into hazards like ponds and drop for one without loss of distance.To me a shot out of the designated area that you can actually take a shot deserves equal penalty not a variation of awards including free drops, why not drop at agreed point the ball went OB? Tiger woods hit a very bad shot onto the roof of a clubhouse and got a drop without penalty is a example of the unfairness.Bernhard Langer had to climb a tree to play once why Tiger didnt go on the roof I dont know? lol. If they had a rule that any ball that becomes unplayable and off the designated field of play for any reason is a penalty drop there would be less sillyness.

As far as ball searching goes, again its golfers that delay things, If you cannot walk strait to your ball without delay of any kind you should wave the following group through. How many do that? Most have to spend a minute or two looking before acting and some even believe they have 5 minutes to search before waving through.A provisional ball is always wise when you lose sight of your ball off fairways, none of us have the luxury of spectators and ball spotters during the average round.

 

[USER1999]

Thing is, if you wave someone through (and you should), you then have to drop into a crowded course when you resume play. There won't be an obvious gap for you do fit into, and so the whole course grinds to a halt. Not good.

The penalty for dropping out of a hazard (using the Grove ruling)should be two shots anyway, as if you went back to the tee then your penalty would be 3 off the tee, instead of 2 from a lot nearer.

 

[John_Findlay]

It just seems like fiddling with rules which have served well for years and which are universally adhered to.

The problem they are trying to solve is slow play. Just play quicker and penalise those who don't. Don't go changing the fundamental rules.

 

[EchtLoon]

I agree with a lot of whats been said here but there are occasions where local rules can apply in comps, after all the position of a tee should one be GUR is in fact a local one.

Of course there are, that's not what's been siad here. This particular local rule is actually illegal in competition.

We had a clamour at our club this year (a muni) to make it a local rule that if you ended up in a footprint in a bunker, then you got a free drop within the bunker, due to the high instances of this happening from public going out before our allotted competition times.

Eventually someone took it to the handicap/competition secretary, only for him to laugh it outas being in breach of the rules.

No-one says you have to get a good lie in a bunker, it's a hazard, likewise this rule for the rough, it's fine to speed up play for the general public, but in comps you must play to the rules.

ultimately if it is such an issue, then clearly the rough is too long and it needs trimmed back!

 

[EchtLoon]

Under rule 33-8, no, they can't. Local rules are for abnormal conditions, not long grass.
A rule of golf cannot be over ruled by a local rule.

THe USGA version, sorry couldn't find R&A

33-8. Local Rules
• a. Policy
The Committee may establish Local Rules for local abnormal conditions if they are consistent with the policy set forth in Appendix I.

• b. Waiving or Modifying a Rule
A Rule of Golf must not be waived by a Local Rule. However, if a Committee considers that local abnormal conditions interfere with the proper playing of the game to the extent that it is necessary to make a Local Rule that modifies the Rules of Golf, the Local Rule must be authorized by the USGA.

 

[Dodger]

a new club near me while it was maturing had a rule where you could shell your tee shot into the small newly planted trees and then take it out of them fairwayside without penalty regardless if they were staked or not.....now that rule really did piss me off.You would knock one up the middle and your opponent would slice it into the trees and end up playing from 10ft away from you!!
Thankfully the rule is no more.

 

[viscount17]

echt' it's exactly the same except that USGA is replaced by R&A

http://www.randa.org/

 

[USER1999]

J_F - Just saying play quicker doesn't work, never has.

Pro's play at a snail pace without penalty, so why can't everyone else?

Obviously as the course is a business, you get more paying customers on if the general speed of play is faster, and more cash in the coffers. Having some idiot complete an 8 hour round due to looking for every shot in the rough isn't going to help anyone, and will be longer if he is also looking for provisionals too.

A lot of venues used for corporate golf are way more difficult to play than the quality of the players playing them, but need to maintain a level of difficulty which makes them still a challenge for better golfers too. This sort of rule just keeps things moving.

I assume this rule is still in place for comps, as it is printed on the score card.

 

[DCB]

Played at Kings Acre when they had new planations and as aresult had not had the rough cut to manageable length. There the designated areas were blue stakes and relief was available as necessary. However, the rule only lasted a short time.

On outings to some of the coastal courses where long grass can be quite penal, we play a ruling on the day that we drop at the point of entry and add 2 strokes. Thats only on a society day though.

The instance described in the OP is a bit like this IMO. Just there to speed up play on a busy course.

Certainly wouldn't see it as 'legal' on a counting competition.

 

[greensman]

I find this fascinating , I am having a political problem at the moment with regards our rough. This rule could save our course.

Personally speaking, I hate to see a course without long rough areas. We may as well play a field and spray shots everywhere. No challenge, no definition, no character, and no ecology... how boring

Anyway we have some members who don’t like the rough! Well its not supposed to be fun, especially when we have to play out of it, even if it is well away from the fairways(60 yds). But the problem has got that serious the committee are contemplating removing the rough areas altogether.
We have nesting birds, butterflies, wildflowers, etc its an environmental haven. Yet some selfish people who can’t play towards a target want to destroy, not just the wildlife but the whole ambiance and character of our great course.

What are your thoughts, am I wrong. Are the customers ALWAYS right.

I value your opinion thanks!

 

[andycap]

Ihope you get your way Greensman,
I agree with you , rough should be there to toughen up the course and make it a challenge and the benefits of flora and fauna are very important . My loal started to let large areas grow rough 2 years ago and it really changed what was a fairly easy 4900yd course , it stopped me going driver/wedge on many of the holes and made me use the mid irons a lot more.
But a lot of the vets who like the course because it is short ,constantly moaned about it and it was eventually cut down
There are a few courses locally on land that was previously farmland, therefore very open apart from the odd hedgerow, the trees planted are going to take many years before they will really affect play and the rough has to do that job in the meantime

 

[Herbie]

For those who say the rules shouldnt be messed with, Im afraid over the entire history of golf that is exactly what has happened. There are no fundimental rules that havent been adjusted or played with.So many rules have been introduced/changed since golf became recognisable as the game we know today.

If there is any more rule manipulating or changing in the future it would be better reducing rules and consolidating many of them.

A point was made that the rules have served us well surely if they had, no one would ever be confused/require a ruling or be debating them so often with all types of player/standard raising issue over rules on web sites galore and club houses galore. That to me isnt serving anyone well, only bearable and at best a talking point.

 

[time_vans]

Whilst on my travels with work I regularly pass Beverley Westwood which has a golf course...along with herds of cattle as it is common grazing land.I noticed yesterday three guys about to tee off with about 50 beast merrily chewing grass on the fairway, now I have never played here but what would be the rule if your ball landed on a cow pat ? I noticed all the greens and bunkers are protected by wire fences so at least the cattle cant get on that bit of the course.

 

[Sam]

..now I have never played here but what would be the rule if your ball landed on a cow pat ?

On is fine - In is not so fine!