Course Architecture - Colt vs Braid vs Mackenzie

[Lord Tyrion]

No it has virtually no rough.

And does your Mackenzie course have carries over long thick rough as described by LT above?

Maybe the ones I've played were a 'phase' for him? Perhaps it was part of the natural landscape of those courses and he chose to incorporate them ?‍.

The comments you both make suggest my point is not valid across his designs, they are not a trait of his. I'm happy to be corrected ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Love clubs eulogising about having a MacKenzie green when the green has a distinct stepped change of level, as if referring to such a green in that way somehow makes it rather special. Curious. Well anyway…we’ve got eight ?. I think we had some Braid input way back then, but not sufficient to make it a Braid course.

 

[Crow]

Why do you think cross-bunkers are boring? I like them..and courses that make you think about your clubbing and whether to lay-up or take it on

In the early days of inland course design, cross bunkers were a common feature and were generally placed to catch the mishit shot or the shot of the weaker player. A good player could easily play over them so all they did was punish the poorer golfer, I just think they show lazy design.

 

[evemccc]

Love clubs eulogising about having a MacKenzie green when the green has a distinct stepped change of level, as if referring to such a green in that way somehow makes it rather special. Curious. Well anyway…we’ve got eight ?. I think we had some Braid input way back then, but not sufficient to make it a Braid course.

Exactly…as Braid / Colt etc are big names to even the most casual golfer, clubs will definitely list them on their website and in their marketing as it lends cache — I’m curious as to whether there is a specific style about their architecture that is discernible to most

 

[IanM]

I always think about Colt setting bunkers into slopes, and he loved a bunker short of the green, that looked as it was actually greenside.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I believe Colt also tried to keep all the hazards visible, nothing was hidden. You can see from the tee exactly what is required of you.

 

[Orikoru]

According to my club's website:
"The grand opening of the new 9 hole course took place on18th June 1910 by Sir William S Gilbert, of Gilbert and Sullivan fame. Sir William’s country house and estate occupied land adjacent to the new course (now Grim’s Dyke hotel) and he became our first President.

In February 1921, plans were drawn up for extending the course to 18 holes, designed by 5 times Open Champion, James Braid, one of the era’s greatest and most prolific designers."

Seemingly implies Braid designed half of it, but it doesn't say which half. (Given that the order of play might have changed since then.)

 

[Foxholer]

Love clubs eulogising about having a MacKenzie green when the green has a distinct stepped change of level, as if referring to such a green in that way somehow makes it rather special. Curious. Well anyway…we’ve got eight ?. I think we had some Braid input way back then, but not sufficient to make it a Braid course.

Indeed, Braid seemed to be THE guy for changes to existing courses for quite a while.

 

[peld]

Our courses are James Braid designed.

On the short West course, there are virtually no fairway bunkers (one cross bunker on the first, a couple on the long Par 5, but nothing else). There are a few dog legs and blind tee shots. Greens are small, and untiered (though there are few with strong slopes). It is tight and tree lined. It opens with a short but tight Par 4.
On the long East course, it has undergone more redesign. It is a little more open, and has more fairway bunkering. There is only one dogleg and a couple of blind tee shots. Greens are bigger, but again untiered except for one (8). Some of the greens are elevated. First hole is a mid-length Par 5 (i.e. reachable in 2 with a good drive for many players).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I believe Colt also tried to keep all the hazards visible, nothing was hidden. You can see from the tee exactly what is required of you.

And so as our bunker rebuild programme has resulted in most of our bunkers now being very visible and so presenting significant visual hazard (as well as real hazard), and loads of dog legs both ways, maybe we can claim to be a Colt-style course with Mackenzie greens and a bit of Braid. ?

 

[Dingy]

I play on a Braid course (Hayston) and he seems to have put all the bunkers and trees in the wrong places, probably motivated by malice towards me personally, great course to play.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We’ll have the East Ren guys on here coming on telling us all about their lovely Braid course…the Gleneagles of the south of Glasgow. It is a great ‘moorland’ track - pity about the trees that were planted in the early 80s as for me that changed the feel of the course - just my opinion and they might well disagree.

 

[Buckles01]

Maybe the ones I've played were a 'phase' for him? Perhaps it was part of the natural landscape of those courses and he chose to incorporate them ?‍.

The comments you both make suggest my point is not valid across his designs, they are not a trait of his. I'm happy to be corrected ?

Play a couple of Mackenzie course’s local to me on a regular basis….both feature several carries from the tee over dense rough or natural landscape hazards, usually approximately 150/170 carry, then the fairway bunkers start at 200 ish. Many greens on each course are either elevated or plateau with severe run offs. Tiered greens the norm and usually rapid in the summer. Lovely to play the similarities between both are very evident though.

 

[Foxholer]

We’ll have the East Ren guys on here coming on telling us all about their lovely Braid course…the Gleneagles of the south of Glasgow. It is a great ‘moorland’ track - pity about the trees that were planted in the early 80s as for me that changed the feel of the course - just my opinion and they might well disagree.

A fair smattering of trees on the 2 moorland courses I played....Lanark and West Linton.

 

[BubbaP]

Currently playing at a Mackenzie - but Tom not Alister. ?


Still, he's known apparently for not moving loads of earth around. Plus penned an interesting note on the project
https://www.mackenzieandebert.com/HeythropPark

 

[jim8flog]

In the early days of inland course design, cross bunkers were a common feature and were generally placed to catch the mishit shot or the shot of the weaker player. A good player could easily play over them so all they did was punish the poorer golfer, I just think they show lazy design.

I have played many a course with cross bunkers between second shot and the green (we have some where I play and West Hill comes to mind). I have always thought of them as a way making it a semi blind shot designed to confuse the golfer as to yardage on courses built before the days of yardage charts.

I agree with your comments in some respects, where I play on the longer holes they only really affect the shorter hitting player. If you go in them you are in following the second shot and such a shot would not have made the green anyway. We have removed some but not all.

 

[sunshine]

Maybe the ones I've played were a 'phase' for him? Perhaps it was part of the natural landscape of those courses and he chose to incorporate them ?‍.

The comments you both make suggest my point is not valid across his designs, they are not a trait of his. I'm happy to be corrected ?

I think the bold bit is key. Mackenzie is famed for making the course look natural. Something about him studying camouflage in the Boer War.

 

[sunshine]

Been a while since I've played it, but have done so quite a bit. Always seemed that the layout was slightly marred by the course condition. Often used for Open Qualification, for which it is immaculately - and evilly - prepared. Disclaimer....I'm a fan of getting beaten up by the course across the road.

Course condition always used to be superb. Then it started to go downhill maybe 8 years ago. However I understand it has improved again in the last couple of years.

The changes to holes 6 and 8 which border the St Albans Road are a monstrosity. 7 has escaped unharmed.

Although I’m a fan of the course across the road, it lacks the charm and character of old fold.

 

[Foxholer]

Course condition always used to be superb. Then it started to go downhill maybe 8 years ago. However I understand it has improved again in the last couple of years.

The changes to holes 6 and 8 which border the St Albans Road are a monstrosity. 7 has escaped unharmed.

Although I’m a fan of the course across the road, it lacks the charm and character of old fold.

I haven't played it since those (necessary) changes were made, but can understand how they'd look monstrous - at least until disguised/hidden by greenery.
I'd never consider describing The Shire as 'charming'. Brutal and inforgiving are words that springs to mind fastest. But masochism is almost a requirement for any golfer!