Cake and Eat It

SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Employers CHOOSE to pay what they pay; Employees ACCEPT what they are offered or don't take the job. Nobody ASKS to work for the minimum or low wages - so the argument goes. Taxpayer funds low paid up to an accepetable living standard.

And so to Brexit Dividend #2. Flow of cheap Eastern European labour much reduced. Employers forced to pay higher wages to fill vacancies as indigenous UK labour pool refuse to work for pittance on offer. Result? Poorer Employers - Happier Employees.

Or, if employer was just managing to keep going on basis of low wages, either: NO increase in wages - plus vacancies as eastern Europeans leave and indigenous Brits unwilling to work for pittance; redundancies to cover increased wage costs; or out of business.

Increased wages as immigration falls - a Brexit Dividend double edged sword or a mirage :)
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I would suggest that many of the services provided on the back of 'cheap labour' we could well survive without...

Do we really need every meal cooked for us and delivered directly to our door?
Do we really need every single item purchased from Amazon delivered, on an individual basis, within two hours?
I am perfectly capable of washing my own vehicle...
And, 40thousand+ less cabs on London's road will make for a whole lot better driving experience...


What we need to be concentrating on is properly resourcing those already here...
Take the kids/grandkids [of the good folk from our Commonwealth that came here in the post war decades] off ignore and provide them with the proper opportunities, they deserve. rather than keep on importing more people because our government/businesses are too lazy to fund/provide proper education and training schemes... For far too long they've been allowed [due to our membership of the EU] to take the easy option...


Oh... And, one phrase that REALLY rings my bell is 'we need immigration because British folk are workshy'...
 
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Hobbit said:
Deflected to the Brexit £350m... sorry but you appear to not want to accept that the councils have money but just don't want to spend it. Austerity could well do with being ended but don't put all the blame on central govt for lack of infrastructure spending. But that doesn't address local councils creating a shortfall in their spend when they have more than enough money to cover any and all needs.

The "we can't afford to give council workers a decent wage increase" is at best disingenuous, and smacks in some cases of "lets make central govt look like the baddies." Would a Labour council really do that...?
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No, but a Tory run one might ;) https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/n...-and-council-tax-hike-in-derbyshire-1-8980785
 
MegaSteve said:
I would suggest that many of the services provided on the back of 'cheap labour' we could well survive without...

Do we really need every meal cooked for us and delivered directly to our door?
Do we really need every single item purchased from Amazon delivered, on an individual basis, within two hours?
I am perfectly capable of washing my own vehicle...
And, 40thousand+ less cabs on London's road will make for a whole lot better driving experience...


What we need to be concentrating on is properly resourcing those already here...
Take the kids/grandkids [of the good folk from our Commonwealth that came here in the post war decades] off ignore and provide them with the proper opportunities, they deserve. rather than keep on importing more people because our government/businesses are too lazy to fund/provide proper education and training schemes... For far too long they've been allowed [due to our membership of the EU] to take the easy option...


Oh... And, one phrase that REALLY rings my bell is 'we need immigration because British folk are workshy'...
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Best of luck if that happens the next time you visit Tescos then.
 
MegaSteve said:
I would suggest that many of the services provided on the back of 'cheap labour' we could well survive without...

Do we really need every meal cooked for us and delivered directly to our door?
Do we really need every single item purchased from Amazon delivered, on an individual basis, within two hours?
I am perfectly capable of washing my own vehicle...
And, 40thousand+ less cabs on London's road will make for a whole lot better driving experience...


What we need to be concentrating on is properly resourcing those already here...
Take the kids/grandkids [of the good folk from our Commonwealth that came here in the post war decades] off ignore and provide them with the proper opportunities, they deserve. rather than keep on importing more people because our government/businesses are too lazy to fund/provide proper education and training schemes... For far too long they've been allowed [due to our membership of the EU] to take the easy option...


Oh... And, one phrase that REALLY rings my bell is 'we need immigration because British folk are workshy'...
Click to expand...

I suspect that your acceptance of lower levels of service may not be acceptable to the majority of Leave voters and not what they voted for.

As it happens I might well take the same view as you on these specific points on what I can do without. But that's me.

Some British workers may - like Tory and Leave voters - be a little shy at coming forward - but I have heard a fair number of employers across the service industries explain why they depend upon immigrants. Local UK labour does not apply; does not turn up for interviews; or disappears never to come back. And the reasons given by indigenous labour include, principally, low wages driven down by Eastern Europeans. Well let's see when the flow of that labour dries up.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I suspect that your acceptance of lower levels of service may not be acceptable to the majority of Leave voters and not what they voted for.

As it happens I might well take the same view as you on these specific points on what I can do without. But that's me.
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I would suggest the vast majority of leavers just wanted out and weren't too concerned with the level of 'service' they may or may not get in the event of the vote going their way...
 
MegaSteve said:
I see you overlooked my use of 'many'...
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I was pointing out that yes, you can do without quick delivery of goods and services in most cases. However, it is bloody useful at times and that is becoming accepted now and saying, lets go back 20 years when we had to wait 5 days to get anything, is not going to happen. But the supply of cheap food, of which the supply of cheap labour to pick and pack it is a major part, https://www.ft.com/content/425f42c8-9dea-11e7-8cd4-932067fbf946 , is pretty essential to a lot of families.
 
Foxholer said:
This really IS becoming a 'Art50 thread in disguise' thread! I remember providing that link to counter the same argument!!

But never mind the (real) statistics...just keep on pounding the "it's all down to immigrants" rhetoric!

Disclaimer...I may be slightly biased as I'm an immigrant - who has been here for 40 years, so will likely start to extract from instead of contributing to the UK economy!
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My Original point was related to the strain on the NHS and how it has become popular with Politicians and the media to put the blame solely on the aging population, I pointed out that the increased population over a short period of time has also exasperated the situation but there is little mention of this due to the fear of being branded racist. It wasn't meant to have any direct context to Article 50 but I agree it could be construed in a very extruded train of thought to be associated to the reason many people voted Brexit. That was not the reason for the thread though.
 
SocketRocket said:
My Original point was related to the strain on the NHS and how it has become popular with Politicians and the media to put the blame solely on the aging population, I pointed out that the increased population over a short period of time has also exasperated the situation but there is little mention of this due to the fear of being branded racist. It wasn't meant to have any direct context to Article 50 but I agree it could be construed in a very extruded train of thought to be associated to the reason many people voted Brexit. That was not the reason for the thread though.
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You are telling us that you think that GPs and others cannot bring themselves to tell the truth about all of the reasons and the real pressures that create the waiting lists and the pressure on services?

I have more faith in the medical profession.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
You are telling us that you think that GPs and others cannot bring themselves to tell the truth about all of the reasons and the real pressures that create the waiting lists and the pressure on services?

I have more faith in the medical profession.
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Why would you tell the truth when you could lose your job for doing so.

If any GP said there was immense pressure because of immigration there would be backlash...

Easier just protect yourself and sit on the fence on issues. Same goes for politicans and most other roles.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
You are telling us that you think that GPs and others cannot bring themselves to tell the truth about all of the reasons and the real pressures that create the waiting lists and the pressure on services?

I have more faith in the medical profession.
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Can you point out where I mentioned GPs. They are not Politicians or the Media :confused:
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Employers CHOOSE to pay what they pay; Employees ACCEPT what they are offered or don't take the job. Nobody ASKS to work for the minimum or low wages - so the argument goes. Taxpayer funds low paid up to an accepetable living standard.

And so to Brexit Dividend #2. Flow of cheap Eastern European labour much reduced. Employers forced to pay higher wages to fill vacancies as indigenous UK labour pool refuse to work for pittance on offer. Result? Poorer Employers - Happier Employees.

Or, if employer was just managing to keep going on basis of low wages, either: NO increase in wages - plus vacancies as eastern Europeans leave and indigenous Brits unwilling to work for pittance; redundancies to cover increased wage costs; or out of business.

Increased wages as immigration falls - a Brexit Dividend double edged sword or a mirage :)
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To deal with your second point first. Take the job at minimum wage or don't earn money at all. And if its an immigrant, they don't get the same level of benefits as a Brit, which 'forces' them to take the job even more.

The first point; a bit anecdotal but when I worked in the NHS we had store man on minimum wage. He got the then known, income supplement and housing benefit. It galled me no end that an employee of the state wasn't paid enough and needed support of benefits to have a living wage.
 
Hacker Khan said:
I was pointing out that yes, you can do without quick delivery of goods and services in most cases. However, it is bloody useful at times and that is becoming accepted now and saying, lets go back 20 years when we had to wait 5 days to get anything, is not going to happen. But the supply of cheap food, of which the supply of cheap labour to pick and pack it is a major part, https://www.ft.com/content/425f42c8-9dea-11e7-8cd4-932067fbf946 , is pretty essential to a lot of families.
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Although I remain very uncomfortable about the use of what amounts to slave labour within agriculture and supply chain... I feel there's not a lot I can do about it... Would appear all political parties [wrongly] apply a default position of turning a blind eye...

With all the other 'stuff' if it is really that important be prepared to divvy up a few more pences or for Bezos to accept lower margins...
 
SocketRocket said:
My Original point was related to the strain on the NHS and how it has become popular with Politicians and the media to put the blame solely on the aging population, I pointed out that the increased population over a short period of time has also exasperated the situation but there is little mention of this due to the fear of being branded racist. It wasn't meant to have any direct context to Article 50 but I agree it could be construed in a very extruded train of thought to be associated to the reason many people voted Brexit. That was not the reason for the thread though.
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That may not have been your intention, but it seems to have morphed into another A50 one anyway!

I don't trust politicians - of any party! - any further than I can throw them - and I'm an 11 stone weaklng! Do you trust them?

As for the NHS....It will always be a bottomless pit! It will always suck up (and demand) as much funding (and more) as any government can possibly provide! That's simply the nature of 'the beast' - and the sooner we recognise/admit this and provide appropriate metrics, the sooner we can truly measure progress/performance (or lack thereof!)!
 
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Foxholer said:
That may not have been your intention, but it seems to have morphed into another A50 one anyway!

I don't trust politicians - of any party! - any further than I can throw them - and I'm an 11 stone weaklng! Do you trust them?

As for the NHS....It will always be a bottomless pit! It will always suck up (and demand) as much funding (and more) as any government can possibly provide! That's simply the nature of 'the beast' - and the sooner we recognise/admit this and provide appropriate metrics, the sooner we can truly measure progress/performance (or lack thereof!)!
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I agree with that.
 
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