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Brexit - The negotiations.

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Hobbit said:
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
If we cannot strike a deal with the EU and have to trade with them under WTO rules, we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place and we have a plan agreed with the EU for working towards that.

That it now seems likely that we will not have a deal agreed, and we leave the transition period on 31st Dec without one, then this becomes important as our exports and imports to and from the EU will otherwise be faced with WTO tariffs. In the context of the state of the economy and business as it is today - that being a very different state than from last year when previously discussed - these tariffs could sink many business currently just keeping afloat.
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WTO tariffs? The WTO tariff database lists the tariffs each countries, or trading organisation(EU), applies. The WTO doesn't create tariffs. "These tariffs..." are these the WTO tariffs that don't exist?

We may not have a trade deal agreed by the end of the year but there may well be an agreed framework. Your point; "we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place." Please explain... I read that as waffle and gobbledygook - might even be twaddle. Surely everyone creates a framework(specification) for any deal?

Would you agree, sign, anything without a specification, a framework?
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I think you know SILH meant WTO Rules - which he did correctly use earlier in the post. Other his post seems, to me, to be quite valid - and, for those border-line businesses, quite scary. But that's 'business' imo. It's definitely something Government needs to provide clarity on asap!
 
drdel said:
The issue would be easily cleared if DfT would provide the details of the system.
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Wouldn't they have to define it first? My understanding is that they are still in the process of doing that, less than 6 months before it's likely to be implemented!

So, basically.....What System?!! It's not even a Proposal yet!
 
Foxholer said:
Wouldn't they have to define it first? My understanding is that they are still in the process of doing that, less than 6 months before it's likely to be implemented!

So, basically.....What System?!! It's not even a Proposal yet!
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DfT said " Looks like we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU and buy the French tested lorry port operations system as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here. "

I am asking a very simple direct question; what Ports Ops System is he suggesting the UK buy? (I ask, not to be difficult but out of professional curiosity having being involved it the spec. of both the original SAD and CHIEF as well as truck tracking software).
 
drdel said:
DfT said " Looks like we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU and buy the French tested lorry port operations system as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here. "

I am asking a very simple direct question; what Ports Ops System is he suggesting the UK buy? (I ask, not to be difficult but out of professional curiosity having being involved it the spec. of both the original SAD and CHIEF as well as truck tracking software).
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That's certainly not a question for me! As of now, it seems even the UK Government isn't certain what it actually want - because it hasn't actually speficied that!

But FWIW, I'd suggest he has no idea which one, nor even the spec of one to either purchase or develop. Like me, I'm sure he'd be 'happy' for one that provides appropriate levels of functionality and performance at appropriate cost!
 
Foxholer said:
That's certainly not a question for me! As of now, it seems even the UK Government isn't certain what it actually want - because it hasn't actually speficied that!

But FWIW, I'd suggest he has no idea which one, nor even the spec of one to either purchase or develop. Like me, I'm sure he'd be 'happy' for one that provides appropriate levels of functionality and performance at appropriate cost!
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I was, not asking you to provide the data.

DfT made a statement I merely wanted to know if it was based on fact/evidence. He could simply answer
 
drdel said:
I was, not asking you to provide the data.

DfT made a statement I merely wanted to know if it was based on fact/evidence. He could simply answer
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And that provides absolutely no additional clarity!
You really should consider a role in politics - if you are not already deeply involved in that sphere!
 
Foxholer said:
And that provides absolutely no additional clarity!
You really should consider a role in politics - if you are not already deeply involved in that sphere!
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What is wrong with you? You have chosen to insert your opinion based on a twisted and wrong interpretation of a simple query. You then expanded it; making it an issue then added a silly comment meant to offend.

I repeat my simple question that I asked DfT. There was no malice or hidden agenda. DfT mentioned/suggested the UK would need to buy a Port system the French had tested. I just asked for more information so I could do a bit of my own research.

You could just leave it for DfT to provide any data he has.
 
drdel said:
What is wrong with you? You have chosen to insert your opinion based on a twisted and wrong interpretation of a simple query. You then expanded it; making it an issue then added a silly comment meant to offend.

I repeat my simple question that I asked DfT. There was no malice or hidden agenda. DfT mentioned/suggested the UK would need to buy a Port system the French had tested. I just asked for more information so I could do a bit of my own research.

You could just leave it for DfT to provide any data he has.
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Refer Posts 486 and 480!
 
Following the negotiations ending a day early Barnier has demanded the UK understands the EU better and treats it with respect. Somewhat hypocritical considering the derogatory social media posts against PM May and the UK from himself, Tusk and Verhofstadt a little over a year ago.

He has also now demanded - by press releases, that:
a) the UK shares its future plans for how it may support UK businesses. I can't think of any circumstances under which any organisation would share its overall aims and plans with anybody least of all a potential competitor in advance!
b) that the EU be allowed continued and permanent access to the majority of UK's fish resources to protect EU jobs
c) the UK permits the UK Courts to be subject to arbitration by the EU legislature.

I know he might just be marking time and grandstanding as he hopes to become Macron's second in command next year but that might not be good for France as he does not seem to grasp the basics of statesmanship and why the UK's referendum and recent election took place?
 
drdel said:
Following the negotiations ending a day early Barnier has demanded the UK understands the EU better and treats it with respect. Somewhat hypocritical considering the derogatory social media posts against PM May and the UK from himself, Tusk and Verhofstadt a little over a year ago.

He has also now demanded - by press releases, that:
a) the UK shares its future plans for how it may support UK businesses. I can't think of any circumstances under which any organisation would share its overall aims and plans with anybody least of all a potential competitor in advance!
b) that the EU be allowed continued and permanent access to the majority of UK's fish resources to protect EU jobs
c) the UK permits the UK Courts to be subject to arbitration by the EU legislature.

I know he might just be marking time and grandstanding as he hopes to become Macron's second in command next year but that might not be good for France as he does not seem to grasp the basics of statesmanship and why the UK's referendum and recent election took place?
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Well we need to share something of our plans if we hope to have any sort of bilateral agreements with the EU in the short term (GATT ArtXXIV para 5c and 7) - because we need the framework of a target Agreement to work towards and a plan to get there. And unless we are open on some things the EU will struggle to define and agree that framework with us.
 
drdel said:
Following the negotiations ending a day early Barnier has demanded the UK understands the EU better and treats it with respect. Somewhat hypocritical considering the derogatory social media posts against PM May and the UK from himself, Tusk and Verhofstadt a little over a year ago.

He has also now demanded - by press releases, that:
a) the UK shares its future plans for how it may support UK businesses. I can't think of any circumstances under which any organisation would share its overall aims and plans with anybody least of all a potential competitor in advance!
b) that the EU be allowed continued and permanent access to the majority of UK's fish resources to protect EU jobs
c) the UK permits the UK Courts to be subject to arbitration by the EU legislature.

I know he might just be marking time and grandstanding as he hopes to become Macron's second in command next year but that might not be good for France as he does not seem to grasp the basics of statesmanship and why the UK's referendum and recent election took place?
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On point (a) I think the aim of the EU is to (almost) straightjacket the UK, restricting how the UK govt supports businesses going forward. That has to be a non-starter. Imagine the UK signing up to some form of restriction, and then the EU changes how it supports businesses in Europe as it climbs out of the Covid-led downturn?

On point (b) I expect there will be a trade off on access for several reasons. The UK fishing industry is in no fit state to take up the extra opportunities available when EU boats are excluded, hence the annual assessment of access the UK has offered. The Royal Navy can in no way, and probably doesn't want to get involved in, protecting UK waters from incursions.

Point (c), I hadn't realised the UK had lost a war and had to be subservient to a foreign power. If there's a disagreement, both sides should sit across a table and find a compromise. No way should one side decide what the outcome is - its almost laughable what the EU are insisting on in this respect. "Get stuffed" Would be my reply on this one.

As for respect; Barnier has bullied the UK negotiators, and under May's tenure he got away with it. He's not getting his way now and clearly finds he is unable to change his style.

Doing it all via the media; he was the one that wasn't happy when the UK published their position a few months back as it clearly showed that the UK did have a comprehensive set of criteria, unlike what he'd been saying in his 'Tweets.'

In all of the EU's demands has there ever been a "we'll give you x if you give us y?" "Its all been you have to do x and..."what? Nothing forthcoming from the EU that remotely suggests a negotiation. There's been no movement from the EU at all.
 
Hobbit said:
On point (a) I think the aim of the EU is to (almost) straightjacket the UK, restricting how the UK govt supports businesses going forward. That has to be a non-starter. Imagine the UK signing up to some form of restriction, and then the EU changes how it supports businesses in Europe as it climbs out of the Covid-led downturn?

On point (b) I expect there will be a trade off on access for several reasons. The UK fishing industry is in no fit state to take up the extra opportunities available when EU boats are excluded, hence the annual assessment of access the UK has offered. The Royal Navy can in no way, and probably doesn't want to get involved in, protecting UK waters from incursions.

Point (c), I hadn't realised the UK had lost a war and had to be subservient to a foreign power. If there's a disagreement, both sides should sit across a table and find a compromise. No way should one side decide what the outcome is - its almost laughable what the EU are insisting on in this respect. "Get stuffed" Would be my reply on this one.

As for respect; Barnier has bullied the UK negotiators, and under May's tenure he got away with it. He's not getting his way now and clearly finds he is unable to change his style.

Doing it all via the media; he was the one that wasn't happy when the UK published their position a few months back as it clearly showed that the UK did have a comprehensive set of criteria, unlike what he'd been saying in his 'Tweets.'

In all of the EU's demands has there ever been a "we'll give you x if you give us y?" "Its all been you have to do x and..."what? Nothing forthcoming from the EU that remotely suggests a negotiation. There's been no movement from the EU at all.
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I cannot see why people fail to understand these issues and yet the bemoaners and yoghurt knighters are unnding in blaming the UK for "lack of progress", "failing to look after businesses", "being unreasonable" because they are not caving in to totally unreasonable EU demands. A trade deal should be within sight on normal logical trade pol icies of sovereign equals not "servant and master" terms
 
PNWokingham said:
I cannot see why people fail to understand these issues and yet the bemoaners and yoghurt knighters are unnding in blaming the UK for "lack of progress", "failing to look after businesses", "being unreasonable" because they are not caving in to totally unreasonable EU demands. A trade deal should be within sight on normal logical trade pol icies of sovereign equals not "servant and master" terms
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What a load of tosh, it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history, yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand. Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA
 
doublebogey7 said:
What a load of tosh, it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history, yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand. Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA
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Not that old potato again, sure we all said it would be the easiest negotiation in history. Of course we did :rolleyes:
 
doublebogey7 said:
What a load of tosh, it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history, yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand. Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA
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There's a major difference between deals when both parties see benefits to a deal where one of the parties want to restrict the other party rather than gain benefits.
 
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