spongebob59
Journeyman Pro
It seems Mr Stop Brexit is back ?
Wonder if he's on the EU payroll ?
Wonder if he's on the EU payroll ?
Brexit - The negotiations.
- Thread starter spongebob59
- Start date
- Status
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 14,618
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Gosh I hope so....
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Could it be because Canada and Japan are more than just a quick hop across 21miles of water - and our trade with both of these countries could be quite different in nature and volume to that between the UK and the EU - possibly could have something to do with EU reticence on it.
In any case, I really I don't think that anyone should be in any way surprised that the EU view the UK in the way that they do in respect of a trade agreement and also in respect of what we signed up to in the political framework. We have known all along that it was always going to be a risk that we didn't get out of the EU just what we'd want.
But of course we know that the risk of that happening and of us not getting the free trade deal with the EU that we want is low as the EU need us more than we need them, so all will be good.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
My God tends to not get directly involved in that sort of thing - however - please God - let Mr Stop Brexit realise that his job is done. He failed.
chrisd
Major Champion
No Hugh, I dont think proximity is a reason for the EU to treat us in the way that the are appearing to want to do. Are we saying that the EU have adversely affected our trading ability in past years deliberately to make us not as competitive as we could have been, because the reason they dont want to offer a good deal due to proximity is that we apparently will be too competitive for them to cope with ! You couldn't make it up!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
It's not just the EU who have made stuff up. And whatever the choice the EU make in respect of UK access to the single market - it is their choice to offer - and the choice that they make will be that which they deem best for the EU and the UK - in that order. It has to be said that they seem adamant that they will not weaken EU principles around Single Market access. They may be bluffing of course but they have said this all along. And they are not the only ones to have made that point.
Meanwhile Zahawi maintains that UK will 'strain every sinew' to get the free trade deal the government wants - though of course they aren't as our negotiators are being told by the government of the constraints they must work within - constraints that the British Public voted for and will demand must be retained. Because apparently the British Public understand all that stuff and all about free trade. Apparently. Bit of a leap that when many seem unable to understand the meaning of simple lockdown and relaxation instructions - either that or a lot of folks feign stupidity
Last edited:
chrisd
Major Champion
It's not just the EU who have made stuff up. And whatever the choice the EU make in respect of UK access to the single market - it is their choice to offer - and the choice that they make will be that which they deem best for the EU and the UK - in that order. It has to be said that they seem adamant that they will not weaken EU principles around Single Market access. They may be bluffing of course but they have said this all along. And they are not the only ones to have made that point.
Meanwhile Zahawi maintains that UK will 'strain every sinew' to get the free trade deal the government wants - though of course they aren't as our negotiators are being told by the government of the constraints they must work within - constraints that the British Public voted for and will demand must be retained. Because apparently the British Public understand all that stuff and all about free trade. Apparently. Bit of a leap that when many seem unable to understand the meaning of simple lockdown and relaxation instructions - either that or a lot of folks feign stupidity
One would think that their offer would be to the benefit of the member states. I dont see that no access to fishing in our waters, tariffs that stop us buying EU members goods over US or Chinese (or others) goods is beneficial to the member states, we have money to spend on cars white goods etc etc but why would we pay a tariff rather than but from outside the EU - there is little to be gained by stop the 5th largest economy from buying from you.
You're once again suggesting that we are stupid and I find that quite insulting!
drdel
Tour Rookie
I'm afraid there is little economic logic in the EU's stance.
Back in 2016 Barnier declared that the UK must not be seen to prosper and he needed to discourage any other members jumping ship.
He is remote from the nations who will be disadvantaged by the stonewall tactics the EU has always used. Stonewalling is about the only safe option for him personally because everything has to be ratified by the 27 but this is almost impossible as the budget planning debacle and their inability to coordinate the EU's response to Covid19 has shown.
The interests of the EU's citizens is, I fear, a long way down in Barnier's priorities.
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
that argument about proximity that Barnier plucked from thin air after first giving the option to May of a Canada-style deal a year or more earlier is one of the bigest piles of stinking horse dung that i have ever heard. He is backtracking and sticking obstacles in the way to try and make the UK still subserviant to EU rules and propose things in the deal that no other sovereign nation would agree to. It will never wash. A trade deal between to sovereign nations/entities should have bi-lateral mechanisms for enforcement/ adjudication - not one side using their aparatus to deal wit the other
chrisd
Major Champion
I think the letter David Frost sent summing up the EU's position said it all
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
I agree Chris. There is nothing unreasonable in what the UK want (although the Irish border issue will need some good faith). I suspect that fisheries is an area we can move on but all the talk on cherry picking is simply rubbish - we want a trade deal with no or low barriers (there may be on some things) but that is the same for both and we have a £70bn trade defecit so they benefit from this a lot more - and on services, we have a big surplus but, again, it is still a win win as the capital markets support european companies to gain more competetive funding and the same with the enormous derivatives market that is best performed with scale. I am not sure which way things will go but, to me, the UK is serious on leaving with no deal if the rhetoric from the EU on areas that would be unacceptable to other countries is not dialled right back. I hope this does not happen as it is either win-win or lose-lose - and this can be achieved and shown as a victory on both sides if pragmatism make an appearance. With the worls now in a much bigger mess than 6 months ago, you would have thought that it is the ideal time for a dose of logic
drdel
Tour Rookie
I fear logic in the EU is in short supply. Germany is acting alone in giving Lufthansa support and planning around 200bn stimulus. While fellow member states suffer.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
All very well and good. But the EU may well simply decide that if the UK is unwilling to play by the rules in respect of what is required for access to the Single Market, then UK does not get access - and that is a decision that the EU will make themselves on the balance of upside and downside to the EU. They know that trade-off for them just as much as the UK does for ourselves, and they will decide what is best no matter what we might claim or complain about.
We have known this all along. Nobody should be expressing any surprise or upset that the EU is taking the stance that it is.
But it will all be just fine as the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. Apparently. I hope the EU understands this.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Germany showing its true colours, the rules have changed unfortunately. UK will have to deal one countries economy while the EU has an organisation will have to deal with a lot more, and some were failing before the current crisis.
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
for sure the EU will do what they want but it will not be in respect of what we want out of a trade deal and playing by the rules as we will be no different to Canada and Japan or anyone else - the proximity and other nonesence is just that. We are not asking for special privilages and have even said that we are not against tarrifs on certain areas. So this is a falsehood for the ideologicrats (new word) from the EU beauracracy to "punish" the UK and try and protect what is ultimately (in its current form - as Covid will highlight even more) a broken model between free trade and monetary union
doublebogey7
Head Pro
I am not sure why you think the EU should be doing what the UK wants, their responsibility is to the 27 countries of the EU and not one of them be foolish enough to allow a free trade deal similar to Canada to one of its nearest neighbours. What are the rules you refer to, if the EU are breaking any rules in the negotiations then we are free to refer them to the WTO. Do you think the UK would have supported a Canada style deal between the EU and Norway/Switzerland when we were in the EU. What is happening is what the "remoaners" were telling you all would happen, only to be assured the "EU needs us more than we need them, well the chickens are coming home to roost. As for Covid, the cheek of it to suggest the EU model is broken the day after the UK had more deaths than the 27 EU countries put together.
pendodave
Tour Rookie
Given what we've learnt about the competence of our elected representatives and the infrastructure of government since March, does anyone seriously think that this is going to end well??
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
I did not say the EU should be doing what the UK wants. I said that what we are after is a normal trade deal between two parties, not one where one side brings its institutions to rule over the other. Do you think we should insist that the House of Lords rules over ttrade or aid disputes? Do you think that the EU would like that? Do you think we should insist that the EU take our state aid laws and their own carry no weight? A trade deal has rules of play and bi-lateral mechanisms to deal with disputes - so we need to create these not use one side's existing aparatus. You sound like Barnier quoting proximity as having any issue on the deal - proximity, by the way, is the same for both sides - so why should it be an issue in our favour, not theirs? It is a ridiculous notion, especially given the massive trade advantage that they have. And yes, i think the UK would have been in favour of Canada style deals with Norway and Switzerland as we will no doubt be doing exactly this when we get around to it. And i am not talking about remoaners (which you sound like) predictions - the EU are being beligerant and bullying in their tactics. And you totally missed the point i was making on covid, which was to highlight the broken nature of the EU model in being able to jump to the defences of the weaker nations in this tragic time as bailouts etc are vetoed by the wealthier north. I was not refering to Covid deaths or individual country resoponses, just the ability to deal with it on an EU basis. So wind your neck in on saying "the cheek of it" to me - how dare I!
To repeat again, this is either a win-win, or a lose lose. We now have voted for a clear choice of one off-the-shelf options that the EU said was available - but that was of course before they believed we had the means (a majority in parliament) to go down this route and also before they realised that we are only 22 miles across the Channel and that this would of course be no good for whatever reason they want to drum up
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Surely it would be better for the EU to have a free trade agreement with one of its major trading countries, the only reason for them not to would be through a position of principle rather than practicality. It must be plain to see that the UK will not accept being constrained by EU desires on level playing field regulations or handing over control of fishing rights in our waters. If we have to revert to WTO then it will be a shame but to answer your question on accepting free trade agreements with Norway etc, why not! Why is that different to Canada or Japan, proximity is a very poor arguement to be treated like a country signing a surrender treaty.
chrisd
Major Champion
I believe that it will end satisfactorily. The EU cant afford to lose our trade as well as fishing rights etc and we would really want a tariff free agreement. When Barnier stops playing silly buggers, and the EU leader step in, as they will, I'm convinced a deal will quickly follow.
- Status