Blade Runner Technology

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so we have probably all now heard the fuss made by Oscar Pistorius about the length of the Brazilian Alan Oliveira's blades. So his blades were within the rules - but were they fair or did Pistorius have a point. And so Oliveira's technology may be 'within the rules' but in Pistorius's eyes that technology gave him an unfair advantage. Interesting that a lot of the comparisons being made in the phone-in I have on are with technology in golf.

Hmmm...I recognise the golf technology discussion that I lose - through weight of numbers rather than logic I would attest. And so yesterday in the club champs I watched both of my partners (good players) use their GPS system and rangefinder continually through two rounds. We were off the very back of the comp tees so our positions on the fairways were different (shorter) than usual (and so GPS was being checked) - and the pin positions were in the competition places - often the very front or the very back of the green (so rangefinder being used - even from 20yds short of the green - give me strength!). Anyway quite a bit of the time I was guessing distances - and not very well most of the time. Oh well.

The secretary (our ex-pro) simply said that our greens are quite small so hit it to the middle and most of the time you'll have a reasonable length birdie putt - though you might be putting up or across steps or severe slopes. This is true. But regardless of the ability of any player to hit a club any specific distance, or indeed to have much clue of how far they hit them, I still contend I was at some disadvantage not knowing precise distances - I must be as we are talking uncertainty in the mind - nothing else. All groups were being clocked (4hrs for the round) so were I to start wandering back and forward checking pin positions I would not have been popular with my playing companions.

Anyway I did not specifically question the use of DMDs/GPS with the secretary - I simply asked that for future major competitions pin position guides are made available. This would be very easy for the greenkeeper to do when setting the positions and would negate almost all concerns I might have about the use of such technology

(you'll note that I have accepted that I have 'lost' the argument)

And to Oliveira's blades. If, as Pistorius suggests, it is true that his blades made him 4" taller than he 'should' have been i.e. leg length consistent with average male body proportions - then yes - maybe within the rules - but unfair to any working to the 'spirit' of the rules.

 

[Ethan]

Another anti-DMD rant - how unusual for this forum.

The comparisons with Oliveira is misplaced - in his case, there is no debate he is allowed blades, simply that the specifications of his blades give me an advantage. The same argument does not translate to DMDs. All players are allowed to choose whichever one they want (so long as it doesn't measure wind speed or elevation), or not to use one at all. You chose the latter option, but you could have chosen the former.

There are also possible disadvantages to DMDs. They can encourage players to play at sucker pins which you, following your Hon Sec's advice - would not. They also depend on players knowing how far they hit any club, and most players overestimate their distance, so may choose more wisely using eyeballing.

DOI: I use a laser rangefinder, but my club also publishes pinsheets.

 

[chrisd]

The point is, that with GPS/rangefinders at golf, if one player can use them so can all the players. They can all have the same "advantage". There will always be people who have better spec gear than others and that applies to all sports - you can have a £50 tennis raquet or £150 one!

I don't personally accept "spirit of the rules" arguments in golf, there is a rules book that cover virtually every aspect of golf and you either break the rules or you dont - full stop!

 

[chris661]

I read somewhere that the other guy won with a slower time than pistorius ran in the semi final.......sour grapes?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Another anti-DMD rant - how unusual for this forum

As I said - I accept I seem to be in the minority these days in respect of DMD/GPS and nothing I say will change things. So I asked for a pinsheet as you have.

And BTW - it isn't a rant. It's simply a view that differs from that of the DMD/GPS brigade. And I did not start to play golf knowing that at some point I'd have to spend money (and we are not talking tuppence) on a bit of kit not actually required to play the game in order for me to have the same information in a competition as an opponent or fellow competitor. And as uncertainty is a 'killer' in golf (as we all know) any information that reduces uncertainty for one that is not easily available to the other by definition affects things.

Anyway - as you and many others now appear to be totally in thrall to their gizmos and no-one will dare take them away - I shrug my shoulders and don't bother. Though yesterday seeing a playing companion checking distance to a pin from 20yds short of the green did make me wonder on his sanity. Admittedly the pin was in an unusual position at the very back of the green ;-)

 

[Ethan]

As I said - I accept I seem to be in the minority these days in respect of DMD/GPS and nothing I say will change things. So I asked for a pinsheet as you have.

And BTW - it isn't a rant. It's simply a view that differs from that of the DMD/GPS brigade. And I did not start to play golf knowing that at some point I'd have to spend money (and we are not talking tuppence) on a bit of kit not actually required to play the game in order for me to have the same information in a competition as an opponent or fellow competitor. And as uncertainty is a 'killer' in golf (as we all know) any information that reduces uncertainty for one that is not easily available to the other by definition affects things.

Anyway - as you and many others now appear to be totally in thrall to their gizmos and no-one will dare take them away - I shrug my shoulders and don't bother. Though yesterday seeing a playing companion checking distance to a pin from 20yds short of the green did make me wonder on his sanity. Admittedly the pin was in an unusual position at the very back of the green ;-)

You don't have to spend tuppence. You can rely instead on judgement of what is the correct club rather than, as some do, look for a number and pull a club you once hit that far, regardless of elevation, wind or anything else. Information is not always power. It may confuse or lull into a false sense of security.

I am not in thrall to my gizmo. I can use a strokesaver just as happily. The gizmo is quicker though.

The person using the DMD from 20 yards is an idiot.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

All players are allowed to choose whichever one they want (so long as it doesn't measure wind speed or elevation)

And just on this one point - this is a false premis as a basis for the argument as it assumes that all players can afford to buy one. You cannot make that assumption no matter how 'inexpensive' you may think they are. DMD/GPS gizmos are not an essential piece of equipment to play the game so you cannot assume that anyone playing the game expects to have to have one and to have to make that outlay.

The situation is not dissimilar to when Pistorious arrived on the scene with his blades. Blades weren't and still aren't required to take part in running - however as not all athletes had access to or could afford blades he scooted races. Fair? No it clearly wasn't so rules defining blades have been brought in not dissimilar to those for golf clubs. Nowadays when you go into competitive running you know at the outset that to have a chance of winning you have to go down the blades route- so you go into it expecting the outlay.

Anyway - just knocking the 'affordability' distraction on the head.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The person using the DMD from 20 yards is an idiot.

ROFLMAO - At least on that we can agree - a nice idiot though.

 

[Ethan]

And just on this one point - this is a false premis as a basis for the argument as it assumes that all players can afford to buy one. You cannot make that assumption no matter how 'inexpensive' you may think they are. DMD/GPS gizmos are not an essential piece of equipment to play the game so you cannot assume that anyone playing the game expects to have to have one and to have to make that outlay.

Anyway - just knocking the 'affordability' distraction on the head.

But I said 'all players are allowed ...'. No comment on affordability, and 100% accurate.

But you can buy second hand DMDs or some cheaper models or those used for hunting for a lot less money than an average driver, and certainly less than a years golf club subscription.

Here is one for £89 (I have no idea if it is any good or not): http://www.laser-range-finder.co.uk

I would argue that the majority of golfers could afford one, perhaps at the cost of a more modest driver or putter, but may choose not to do so.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But I said 'all players are allowed ...'. No comment on affordability, and 100% accurate.

But you can buy second hand DMDs or some cheaper models or those used for hunting for a lot less money than an average driver, and certainly less than a years golf club subscription.

Here is one for £89 (I have no idea if it is any good or not): http://www.laser-range-finder.co.uk

I would argue that the majority of golfers could afford one, perhaps at the cost of a more modest driver or putter, but may choose not to do so.

I don't disagree, but it is a moot point. You shouldn't have to have one to have access to the same information. If these things don't make any difference to the decision making of a player why do so many have them? However, I concede that my view is in the minority - even if my view is simply that they should not be allowed in club comps, as a minimum the Club Champ.

 

[chris661]

You shouldn't have to have one to have access to the same information.

You don't have to have a DMD to get the same information though, it just makes getting that information quicker.

Is this a debate on DMD or the runners? If it is the former start a different thread in the lounge if it's the latter keep on topic ;-)

 

[patricks148]

What a disappointment this post is, I thought someone had come up with a basic pleasure model replicate?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You don't have to have a DMD to get the same information though, it just makes getting that information quicker.

Is this a debate on DMD or the runners? If it is the former start a different thread in the lounge if it's the latter keep on topic ;-)

As I started the topic am I not allowed to take it where I want

Simple point is technology - what is fair and what is not. Technology within the rules and outwith them. When the discussion today about running 'blades' referred constantly to golf technology - the two seem to be linked - not me linking them.

And as far as getting the info quicker - yes it does. And so the comp yesterday I would have had to walk up to the green to find out where the flag was to get the 'same' information - and without a pin-guide, etiquette 'stops' me doing that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What a disappointment this post is, I thought someone had come up with a basic pleasure model replicate?

For this you need to play mixed foursomes - in all it's variants.

 

[SharkAttack]

I don't disagree, but it is a moot point. You shouldn't have to have one to have access to the same information.

You don't have to pay more than a few pence for a notebook and pen, then take a walk round the course pacing out and marking distances to the front edge of the green and length of the green. Just like we used to do back in the dark ages, no wait it's what the pro's do today and their scores are not to shabby.

So there is no excuse for being at a disadvantage at your own course and you can buy a stroke saver at lots of courses.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

DMD in golf which may or may not be accessible to all given budget, desire to own one etc or blades available to trained athletes training for the pinnacle of their career. Can't actually see how the two are comparable and and argument can be based on that basis. In terms of the blades. they all met the criteria and the winner hadn't made any changes between the semi and the final. His time in the semi was slower than the South African. Nothing but sour grapes from someone who thought he just needed to turn up to win and now looking for excuses

 

[jammag]

I like the original point in this thread, and I think the thread went off course with the original point. I think because it mention DMD it straight away rattles some peoples cages.

Now onto the actual point I think was being made and I see what you mean, blades are available but they have certain measurements they have to come into, so they can be between 2 sizes, what Oscar is saying is that others are pushing the limits of what they can do to gain an advantage, which is totally within the rules but probably against the spirit of it, when he has the same sized blades even though he could take the mick and go for bigger ones, unfortunately due to him being the poster boy of the Paralympics he cannot really do this as it would create more problems for him going forward with running against able bodies competitors. He is just trying to get the formulas worked out better as he said a couple of years ago people were shorter than him now suddenly are a lot taller than him.

I think a better comparison within golf would be putter length, you are within the rules at the moment allowed to have a longer putter which takes away a certain aspect of the skill, although being in the rules is it in the spirit of the game to do this as such.

 

[palindromicbob]

As I started the topic am I not allowed to take it where I want

Simple point is technology - what is fair and what is not. Technology within the rules and outwith them. When the discussion today about running 'blades' referred constantly to golf technology - the two seem to be linked - not me linking them.

And as far as getting the info quicker - yes it does. And so the comp yesterday I would have had to walk up to the green to find out where the flag was to get the 'same' information - and without a pin-guide, etiquette 'stops' me doing that.

Were you playing with people that you didn't like to talk to? Or were they the kids at school that covered their papers during a just for fun test. What was stopping you asking them yardage if they had similar shot as yourself. Or even if they are behind you ask and pace the difference.