AND HERE WE GO - THE 2019 GENERAL ELECTION THREAD

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My Son lived and worked in Sheffield 15 years ago, he lived around the Eccleshall road which I thought was a lovely area. He worked for a Graphic Design company based in Dore just up the road and did very well there.

Know Eccy Road well as my lad lived in Ranmoor for a while (until he couldn't afford the rent). And know Dore also as we often go out that way to head across the moors back to Chesterfield. Nice part of Sheffield. Where he is now - not so great.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You may have a point, but Grieve also has an axe to grind.
It’s very comfortable sitting here on my fence.

He absolutely has an axe to grind - but here he is talking about process and the fact that as Chair of the Committee the government should be telling him why they are not releasing it - what their issue is. Why they need to review it further. Not just that they say they need to. Not good enough say's Grieve; that's not how it works.

What are they hiding? Johnson will know that a large part of the electorate have very significant trust issues with him, then why act in a way that only goes to confirm that lack of trust?

Unless he just does not care about trust in government, and is simply focussed on himself and becoming the next Prime Minster, no matter if in that focus he destroys trust further.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

He absolutely has an axe to grind - but here he is talking about process and the fact that as Chair of the Committee the government should be telling him why they are not releasing it - what their issue is. Why they need to review it further. Not just that they say they need to. Not good enough say's Grieve.

What are they hiding? Johnson will know that a large part of the electorate have very significant trust issues with him, then why act in a way that only goes to confirm that lack of trust?

I get that and have my concerns over Johnson, but Grieve continually pushing this publicly is not doing himself any favours, there must be other avenues he could go down.

 

[ger147]

He absolutely has an axe to grind - but here he is talking about process and the fact that as Chair of the Committee the government should be telling him why they are not releasing it - what their issue is. Why they need to review it further. Not just that they say they need to. Not good enough say's Grieve; that's not how it works.

What are they hiding? Johnson will know that a large part of the electorate have very significant trust issues with him, then why act in a way that only goes to confirm that lack of trust?

Unless he just does not care about trust in government, and is simply focussed on himself and becoming the next Prime Minster, no matter if in that focus he destroys trust further.

He is no longer Chair of the Committee in the same way as he is no longer an MP, merely a candidate. The committee no longer exists and it will likely be around 6 months into the new parliament before the new committee is reformed.

Hence why he was going nuts before Parliament was dissolved trying to get it published.

 

[Grant85]

Re: on immigration. I think it's a complete failing of our democratic system that it seems the 2 main parties feel compelled to make statements on cutting or controlling immigration. The detail of these is so vague they could never realistically be held to account.

There is no admission of the following;
* the vast majority of immigrants are of working age and net contributors to the economy and tax take
* a huge proportion of the non-immigrant population (close to 50%) do not work full time (either too young, too old, can't, don't want to etc)
* the UK needs immigrants to fill gaps in the working population - be this healthcare professionals, tradesmen, seasonal workers, tourism jobs etc.

There is far too much quarter given to the little englander mentality that immigrants strain the public services and take jobs from Brits.
In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is complete nonsense.

Public services are strained because the government have chosen to spend money on other things (HS2, nuclear weapons, tax breaks for the rich, Brexit no deal provision).
And in reality immigrants are doing jobs that locals can't or won't do.

It would be hugely difficult to maintain the UK economy growing positively without immigrants of working age coming and doing jobs, paying taxes and making their life here.

Politicians should educate voters on these matters rather than simply rushing to pander to the ignorance that exists.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

He is no longer Chair of the Committee in the same way as he is no longer an MP, merely a candidate. The committee no longer exists and it will likely be around 6 months into the new parliament before the new committee is reformed.

Hence why he was going nuts before Parliament was dissolved trying to get it published.

...and with Johnson as PM it is likely that the report will never be published - and I think we should have some concerns over that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Re: on immigration. I think it's a complete failing of our democratic system that it seems the 2 main parties feel compelled to make statements on cutting or controlling immigration. The detail of these is so vague they could never realistically be held to account.

There is no admission of the following;
* the vast majority of immigrants are of working age and net contributors to the economy and tax take
* a huge proportion of the non-immigrant population (close to 50%) do not work full time (either too young, too old, can't, don't want to etc)
* the UK needs immigrants to fill gaps in the working population - be this healthcare professionals, tradesmen, seasonal workers, tourism jobs etc.

There is far too much quarter given to the little englander mentality that immigrants strain the public services and take jobs from Brits.
In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is complete nonsense.

Public services are strained because the government have chosen to spend money on other things (HS2, nuclear weapons, tax breaks for the rich, Brexit no deal provision).
And in reality immigrants are doing jobs that locals can't or won't do.

It would be hugely difficult to maintain the UK economy growing positively without immigrants of working age coming and doing jobs, paying taxes and making their life here.

Politicians should educate voters on these matters rather than simply rushing to pander to the ignorance that exists.

Dominic Grieve (yes him again) made the observation that when he gets the train from Beaconsfield (his constituency) into London in the morning he sees the return train full of folk heading out Beaconsfield way to service the town and the area - and they seem to be mainly immigrants

Besides - I get an impression that the Scottish service industry is now in large part delivered by the Scottish Polish community.

 

[drdel]

IMO there's virtually no pressing reason to publish reports of this nature; it will next to zero impact on the average person and just fuel soundbite journalism.

While redaction can be used anyone with a brain can usually fill in the blanks e.g removing names of people and organisations may help anonymity but its subject inclusion recognises that the role existed. Just as Banks etc continually advise customers to avoid putting bits of data into the social networks/ public arena because those with the intent can 'harvest' bits and develop a fuller accurate picture. We should not underestimate what certain countries collect/harvest and the efforts they employ.

Of itself this report may appear 'secure' but it could contribute to building information added from other sources. IMO the 'need-to-know' test is the most prudent and I don't think, in this case the average person really needs to know - even if they think they do. In this instance I think Grieve is just playing silly beggars to get attention and keep himself in front of the cameras.

 

[drdel]

Dominic Grieve (yes him again) made the observation that when he gets the train from Beaconsfield (his constituency) into London in the morning he sees the return train full of folk heading out Beaconsfield way to service the town and the area - and they seem to be mainly immigrants

Besides - I get an impression that the Scottish service industry is now in large part delivered by the Scottish Polish community.

I guess the trip doesn't happen that often as he lives in France and its often interviewed in the French media now he has the Legion d'honneur .

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

IMO there's virtually no pressing reason to publish reports of this nature; it will next to zero impact on the average person and just fuel soundbite journalism.

While redaction can be used anyone with a brain can usually fill in the blanks e.g removing names of people and organisations may help anonymity but its subject inclusion recognises that the role existed. Just as Banks etc continually advise customers to avoid putting bits of data into the social networks/ public arena because those with the intent can 'harvest' bits and develop a fuller accurate picture. We should not underestimate what certain countries collect/harvest and the efforts they employ.

Of itself this report may appear 'secure' but it could contribute to building information added from other sources. IMO the 'need-to-know' test is the most prudent and I don't think, in this case the average person really needs to know - even if they think they do. In this instance I think Grieve is just playing silly beggars to get attention and keep himself in front of the cameras.

How do you know that there is no pressing reason? The reason to publish is that that is what the process determines. You have come up with all sorts of reasons for not releasing - but the cross-party Committee, and more importantly addressing your concerns - the Security and Intelligence services have said that it is good to be released...what others then do with the information - well what we as individuals choose to believe is up to the individual - we are not stupid are we?

 

[SocketRocket]

Re: on immigration. I think it's a complete failing of our democratic system that it seems the 2 main parties feel compelled to make statements on cutting or controlling immigration. The detail of these is so vague they could never realistically be held to account.

There is no admission of the following;
* the vast majority of immigrants are of working age and net contributors to the economy and tax take
* a huge proportion of the non-immigrant population (close to 50%) do not work full time (either too young, too old, can't, don't want to etc)
* the UK needs immigrants to fill gaps in the working population - be this healthcare professionals, tradesmen, seasonal workers, tourism jobs etc.

There is far too much quarter given to the little englander mentality that immigrants strain the public services and take jobs from Brits.
In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is complete nonsense.

Public services are strained because the government have chosen to spend money on other things (HS2, nuclear weapons, tax breaks for the rich, Brexit no deal provision).
And in reality immigrants are doing jobs that locals can't or won't do.

It would be hugely difficult to maintain the UK economy growing positively without immigrants of working age coming and doing jobs, paying taxes and making their life here.

Politicians should educate voters on these matters rather than simply rushing to pander to the ignorance that exists.

So whats wrong with a points based immigration system that allows those that the country has a need for. I cannot see any benefit for an open door immigration system that allows people to come and live if they dont have skills we need.
Regarding these people being of working age and a net benefit, thats not so good if they strain our already over stretched services like schools, doctors surgeries, housing and hospitals. Also, these people will also grow old and need support, this requires an exponential number of immigrants in the future to service them, this is not sustainable so we need tp find other ways to support our aging society. An overpopulated country does nothing to improve peoples quality of life.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thinking that Tories might believe the electorate to be stupid enough to believe that Labour would inflict two referendum upon the UK...they do keep pushing this about Labour.

Tories should either stop implying that, or make clear that only Scotland would be subject (as they would have it) to two referendums. That many Scots would welcome two referendums seems neither here nor there to them,

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So whats wrong with a points based immigration system that allows those that the country has a need for. I cannot see any benefit for an open door immigration system that allows people to come and live if they dont have skills we need.
Regarding these people being of working age and a net benefit, thats not so good if they strain our already over stretched services like schools, doctors surgeries, housing and hospitals. Also, these people will also grow old and need support, this requires an exponential number of immigrants in the future to service them, this is not sustainable so we need tp find other ways to support our aging society. An overpopulated country does nothing to improve peoples quality of life.

I think that you mean 'we all'

And you are correct in this - though not sure why you think the growth would be exponential other than it sounds very worrying - and so wondering what your solution is. Unless, of course, we all as children start accepting that we have a personal responsibility to look after our parents in their dotage...

I have no figures to prove things one way or the other, but I suspect that some immigrants have a greater culture of responsibility towards their parents in old age than the present day native ethnic population of the UK.

Meanwhile NHS performance stats are today reported as being terrible - the worst ever. And we are potentially going to be making it harder to hit these targets by cutting back on the immigration that is crucial to the running and delivery of the NHS. Brilliant.

And you see the big elephant in the room was just pointed out by a caller from the North of England speaking on LBC with Shelagh Fogarty (who is a brilliant broadcaster btw) - and he was absolutely clear than in the north of England; in his community, and with everyone he knows, the Referendum leave vote was all about immigration - he was adamant that as much as others might like to say it wasn't - it just was. Yes - a Leave ranter. But have a listen to LBC Catch Up Online - just under 2 hrs in. And that is where I fear we are with so many

 

[Deleted member 18645]

That many Scots would welcome two referendums seems neither here nor there to them,

Only if the results go in their favour. Otherwise they will push for another one.

 

[Grant85]

So whats wrong with a points based immigration system that allows those that the country has a need for. I cannot see any benefit for an open door immigration system that allows people to come and live if they dont have skills we need.
Regarding these people being of working age and a net benefit, thats not so good if they strain our already over stretched services like schools, doctors surgeries, housing and hospitals. Also, these people will also grow old and need support, this requires an exponential number of immigrants in the future to service them, this is not sustainable so we need tp find other ways to support our aging society. An overpopulated country does nothing to improve peoples quality of life.

Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling) to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Eddie Mair is these days extending to fill the 6-7pm slot currently vacated by Nigel Farage. Most evenings Mair focusses on either discussing a particular election talking-point as suggested by listeners - or with an interview. And this evening it's an interview with Mark Francois - Deputy Chairman of the ERG and Tory Party candidate for Rayleigh and Wickford. Francois is always good value, and Mair is a pretty forensic and often rather sceptical interviewer. A must listen methinks.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling) to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.

Scotland is not over populated. In that respect I imagine it's a lovely place to live. ( But it's too cold for me.)😀
But I do disagree with you.
England has too many people living in it. That has been the case for a long time.
When I was a boy I remember that if my parents needed to see the Doctor then they just went to the surgery that evening and they saw him. No appointments used nor needed.
Now, to see the Dr, I need to phone and it is four weeks.
One reason only. Too many people needing the facility.
I'll bet that the ratio of Drs per area of land is around the same, if not more.
Same reason why school selection problem is as bad as it is.
Same reason why roads are clogged. Sure, everyone is driving now( whereas before it wasn't everyone) , but nevertheless there are millions more living here, more than births/deaths alone ratio would have accounted for.
I think the Office for National Statistics ( is it? ) would back me up re the rate of population growth.

 

[SocketRocket]

Know Eccy Road well as my lad lived in Ranmoor for a while (until he couldn't afford the rent). And know Dore also as we often go out that way to head across the moors back to Chesterfield. Nice part of Sheffield. Where he is now - not so great.

Chicago 🙂 He's been there 15 years, married to an American girl, three grandsons. Hes a US citizen now so there for the duration, doing very well, enormous house, good job as a senior manager but works very hard. Winters too cold for me.

 

[SocketRocket]

Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling) to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.

Wow,quite a lot wrong with this! IMO of course.

I dont believe it should be difficult to get a short term visa for temporary workers, if we need them why should it be.

You say people will go to other countries but what countries outside the EU have open immigration? I guess not many that people would want to go to. I think we already have enough low skilled immigrants to cover most of the work in Hotels etc.
We have seen one of the largest increase in our population ever and most of that driven by births from women not born in this country. My experience is that they do not work for a few years and go back but stay and have famiiles due to the better welfare in this country.

England is one of the highest populated countries in the world, especially if you remove some of the small countries like Luxembourg from the list. There is no doubt for me that our services are overloaded due to the short timescale we have seen this population increase. Its unsustainable, we are adding the equivalent as the population of a city like Leeds each year, no wonder theres a housing shortage and it takes weeks to see a Doctor, let alone schools being overloaded.

I question whether immigrants add national wealth through taxation, I have read that they are at the best cost neutral (the HOL did a study on this and came to this conclusion) and that's questionable, otherwise why are we not getting richer through this additional taxation?

Regarding your comments on regional expenditure, that's another discussion.

 

[harpo_72]

Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling) to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.

Which has been noticed by the EU and they have been paying back the 38billion to areas that need support.
Money which certain governments would never have paid out.