Wrong Ball Found In Hazard

Region3

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We had a situation occur this week that went like this...

Player hit approach to green into a water hazard (yellow stakes) which is a pond with large trees surrounding it, only there's no water in it at the moment.
The ball hit a couple of the trees and probably dropped in the hazard but we didn't see it. Because we weren't 'virtually certain', the player played a provisional ball.

All good so far.

We walked around in the hazard for the ball and within 20 seconds we found it, so the provisional is now dead.
The ball wasn't playable and dropping back on a line gave no shot so the player went back to the previous spot and hit his approach again.

A chip shot later and he goes to mark his ball on the green, and notices that even though it's the same make of ball with the same company logo on it, that it isn't actually his ball as the markings were different.

We go back to the hazard and after a couple of minutes find his original ball.

Had he effectively played a wrong ball by finding the wrong ball, even though his original was in the same hazard?
Or was everything ok because his ball did turn out to be in the hazard that he took a penalty stroke from?

We didn't know whether he should carry on with the ball that was on the green (and if so, whether or not to add any penalty shots) or if he had to go back to the spot he'd already played 2 shots from and hit another to finish the hole with.
 

cookelad

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I'd have chickened out and played 2 balls and checked at the end.

I suspect the player was ok to continue with the ball he'd chipped onto the green without further penalty - but I wouldn't want to put my mortgage payment on it!
 

rosecott

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Any strokes made with a wrong ball do not count. The player incurs a 2-troke penalty for playing the wrong ball and, provided the original ball was then found within a total of 5 minutes searching time, he must then continue play with the original ball. He now has the same choices as when playing his wrong ball - he can try to play it as it lies in the hazard or drop behind the hazard for one stroke penalty.
 

duncan mackie

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Any strokes made with a wrong ball do not count. The player incurs a 2-troke penalty for playing the wrong ball and, provided the original ball was then found within a total of 5 minutes searching time, he must then continue play with the original ball. He now has the same choices as when playing his wrong ball - he can try to play it as it lies in the hazard or drop behind the hazard for one stroke penalty.

what wrong ball?

the player was proceeding under rule 26 with knowledge or virtual certainty that his ball was in the hazard (it doesn't matter that it was or wasn't). I agree it's complicated by the possibility that the ball found provided the K or VC, but the acceptance by all that the ball was his also provides this.

rule 26 permits the player to substitute, so it can't be a wrong ball when proceeding under 26.

this is my interpretation overall, there can never be a 'right or wrong' when it comes down to K or VC issues with each being treated on merit

for completeness, if it's considered that there wasn't K or VC the player would have played an incorrectly substituted ball under an inapplicable rule if he had dropped behind the hazard. however, as he replayed his previous shot he doesn't need to have found anything anywhere, and obviously 27-1 permits a substituted ball (because it's normally based on lost etc!)
 
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MashieNiblick

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Hmm I think that the "wrong" ball is in play and the player should continue with it because he proceeded under the stroke and distance option of the water hazard rule which only requires a player to drop "a ball". There is no requirement to find or contunue play with the original ball under that option. It is fine to substitute a ball in those circumstances and indeed that is what usually happens when a ball is hit into a WH. Same would apply if dropping behind the hazard. The fact that you thought it was the original ball makes no difference as far as I can see as the outcome is the same.

In other words the ball he found and dropped was a "substitued" ball not a "wrong" ball.

The substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it is dropped so at that point the original ball is out of play.

However if the player had played the wrong ball from the hazard then Rule 15-3 - Wrong Ball would have applied and he would have incurred a 2 stroke penalty (unless the ball was moving in the hazard) and should have proceeded under that Rule.

If the ball hadn't been found in the hazard and you weren't virtually certain the ball was lost in the hazard the provo would have become the ball in play and should have been replaced under an additional 1 stroke penalty.
 

duncan mackie

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ah - missed the provisional bit in the original.......this would indeed complicate the situation a huge amount!

the original ball was not found in the hazard, and a provisional had been played...

the dropped ball is deemed to have been played under 27-1 for the provisional ball

assuming a par 4, the 2nd was lost, the 4th (provisional) is in play (because the 2nd wasn't found at the time) and the dropped ball would have been played as 6th shot....
 

duncan mackie

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..... the player should continue with it because he proceeded under the stroke and distance option of the water hazard rule ....

thanks for highlighting the eistence of the provisional ball.

the problem with your statement quoted above is that there isn't such an option under 26, it's the option to proceed under 27-1. You can't proceed under 27-1 with respect to the OB when a provisional has been played - so you would be deemed to have played under 27-1 with respect to the provisional (I think!).
 

MashieNiblick

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thanks for highlighting the eistence of the provisional ball.

the problem with your statement quoted above is that there isn't such an option under 26, it's the option to proceed under 27-1. You can't proceed under 27-1 with respect to the OB when a provisional has been played - so you would be deemed to have played under 27-1 with respect to the provisional (I think!).

Reference to proceeding under stroke and distance option of 26-1 was just a reflection of the fact that the option to proceed under 27-1 (stroke and distance) is included explicitly in the options under 26-1 (26-1a).

With regard to the second part of your comment, if I read it correctly, then yes, as the provisional was played on basis of the possibility that ball was lost outside the hazard, without K or VC that ball was in the hazard (which finding the ball provided) the provo would become ball in play by default and as it was lifted it would need to be replaced under an additional 1 stroke penalty. No need to play again under s&d but not sure if that was your point.

I was also wondering about playing a wrong ball in a hazard. I think it didn't used to be a penalty but that was changed a while ago. Is that right?
 

duncan mackie

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Reference to proceeding under stroke and distance option of 26-1 was just a reflection of the fact that the option to proceed under 27-1 (stroke and distance) is included explicitly in the options under 26-1 (26-1a).

I wasn't trying to be pedantic here, just highlighting that the 'first option under 26-1 is to play under 27-1 - and therefore the relationship to the ball played provisionally under 27-2.

With regard to the second part of your comment, if I read it correctly, then yes, as the provisional was played on basis of the possibility that ball was lost outside the hazard, without K or VC that ball was in the hazard (which finding the ball provided) the provo would become ball in play by default and as it was lifted it would need to be replaced under an additional 1 stroke penalty. No need to play again under s&d but not sure if that was your point.

we agree up until your conclusions. as a ball was dropped where the provisional ball was last played from the player has proceeded under 27-1 (S&D) with respect to the provisional. If he hadn't dropped and played this ball he could have proceeded as you suggest by replacing the provisional as near as possible to where it had come to rest with an penalty shot under 18-2, but he didn't and isn't permitted to go back and do it later in this situation.

I was also wondering about playing a wrong ball in a hazard. I think it didn't used to be a penalty but that was changed a while ago. Is that right?

currently there is no penalty associated with making a stroke at a wrong ball moving in a water hazard - I also seem to remember some changes about this area in the past but haven't time to check it all now.
 

MashieNiblick

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we agree up until your conclusions. as a ball was dropped where the provisional ball was last played from the player has proceeded under 27-1 (S&D) with respect to the provisional. If he hadn't dropped and played this ball he could have proceeded as you suggest by replacing the provisional as near as possible to where it had come to rest with an penalty shot under 18-2, but he didn't and isn't permitted to go back and do it later in this situation.

Cheers Duncan. Got it now. :thup:

Going back to the OP, in respect of clarifying the status of the first ball retrieved from hazard, I subsequently came across this which I think is helpful

15-1/4 Players Inadvertently Exchange Balls Recovered from Water Hazard

A and B played into a water hazard at approximately the same spot. One caddie was authorised to retrieve both balls and he handed A's ball to B and B's ball to A. Each player dropped the ball handed to him behind the hazard under Rule 26-1b and played to the green. On reaching the green, they discovered the exchange of balls. Should they be penalised under Rule 15-2?

No. Rule 26-1b authorises the player to drop “a ball”. Accordingly, the substitution of another ball is permissible.
 
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