World Handicap System Question

jim8flog

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The question wasn't about a competition though, see above, it was about score counting for handicap, where there wouldn't be a competition field to be adversely affected.

This is like saying that you can't play a few holes on a course for a warm up and then go out and play a round for a general play score, which I can't remember ever hearing wasn't allowed.
But then I don't tend to submit general play scores so maybe I've just missed it, please confirm.
General play cards have to be submitted using the same rules as a competition round.
 

Swango1980

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in case I have misunderstood, let me clarify. If you play on the same course and on the same day before a stroke play competition you are disqualified from the competition and your score does not count for handicapping. If you played a full round before the competition and met the requirements of a general play score, your score would be acceptable.
Just to clarify:

Play and submit a general play round in morning. No problem. Then on same course, play in a singles competition in afternoon. DQ from competition. No problem. Round does NOT count for handicap

However, if that afternoon round was not a competition round, but simply a second General Play Round, then the second round WOULD count for handicap?
 

rulefan

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Just to clarify:

Play and submit a general play round in morning. No problem. Then on same course, play in a singles competition in afternoon. DQ from competition. No problem. Round does NOT count for handicap

However, if that afternoon round was not a competition round, but simply a second General Play Round, then the second round WOULD count for handicap?
Have you relied on 2.1b(i) 'but no significant scoring advantage has been gained' for the statement in bold above?
 

Swango1980

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Have you relied on 2.1b(i) 'but no significant scoring advantage has been gained' for the statement in bold above?
It was a direct reply to Colins post, which said:

"If you play on the same course and on the same day before a stroke play competition you are disqualified from the competition and your score does not count for handicapping"

I asked the question, in case I was missing the context.
 

Colin L

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In that case I am directing the question to Colin
Colin ?
As mentioned above, a DQ for practising on the course before a competition is one of the DQs specified by CONGU as rendering a score unacceptable for handicapping.
Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I, Appendix J, p.49
 

Swango1980

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As mentioned above, a DQ for practising on the course before a competition is one of the DQs specified by CONGU as rendering a score unacceptable for handicapping.
Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I, Appendix J, p.49
Is it therefore not a contradiction that the second round does not count for handicapping if it is in a competition, but absolutely fine if it is just another general play score?
 

Swango1980

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It's not absolutely fine. See post #20.
Interesting, as I know several players who have submitted 2 general play scores in a day. I know one guy that does it frequently (he submits in excess of 25 scores a month, probably over 30 scores most times). I'm sure there have even been discussions on this forum about people having 2 scores on the same day, and the discussion was centred around which one is dropped first once they become the 20th and 21st oldest scores (apparently the software dropped them off in the wrong order). I never remember anyone flagging that the 2nd round in the day, if on the same course, should be unacceptable.

Does the software (MyEG, howdidido, etc) not have any restrictions in disallowing the second round? If not, it would seem like an easy enough thing to do.

In my opinion, however, it does sound harsh to disallow the second round. I completely see the reason for it in competitions. But, I didn't realise the rules of handicapping were that strict, that they didn't want a player to go out and practice before a general play round (God forbid a player would want to do that), when it gives them no competitive edge over other players.
 

rulefan

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I'm sure there have even been discussions on this forum about people having 2 scores on the same day, and the discussion was centred around which one is dropped first once they become the 20th and 21st oldest scores (apparently the software dropped them off in the wrong order).
I think they were concerned with 36 hole competitions not general play scores.
 

Swango1980

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I think they were concerned with 36 hole competitions not general play scores.
Which again, allowing 36 hole scores, in my opinion, contradicts disallowing 2 general play scores.

If a competition is formatted as such that it has 36 holes in a day, the player is clearly not DQed from the competition in the 2nd 18 holes. Obviously that is fine, as no player is getting an advantage over another. And, WHS is also happy to turn a blind eye to practice on the course for the second 18 holes.

Yet, if both rounds are General Play, WHS suddenly tells us the second round is unacceptable for handicap because the player played on the course beforehand. It seems really strange. Given that there is no competition, the only thing that can surely make it unacceptable is that WHS thinks the player is more likely to shoot a better score due to knowing the course set up? If that was the case, why would that not apply in a 36-hole competition as well?

I also wonder why MyEG doesn't automatically disallow this, which it could. Just checked another mates scores, who is on igolf, and he also has submitted 2 general play scores from the same course in a single day. Given that the app cannot automatically ban this, England Golf must be doing a lousy job of reviewing player scores by letting that one slip through the net :)
 

rulefan

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Just speculating.
All players in a 36 hole camp have a guaranteed opportunity (and requirement) to play two rounds in the day. However, a player wishing to play 2 general play rounds does not. Further, a comp player is not just playing for their handicap they are primarily playing to win or be in the frame. A general player has no extra incentive
 

Swango1980

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Just speculating.
All players in a 36 hole camp have a guaranteed opportunity (and requirement) to play two rounds in the day. However, a player wishing to play 2 general play rounds does not. Further, a comp player is not just playing for their handicap they are primarily playing to win or be in the frame. A general player has no extra incentive
Possibly, but I think we need to really work on our imagination to try and speculate why one score is OK for handicap, and the other is not.

However, can I just ask for your opinions on a potential "loophole"?

Post 20 says "In submitting General Play scores, players must ensure that they do not breach Rule 5.2 (Practice) of the Rules of Golf"

If we read Rule 5.2b Stroke Play, it says: "On the day of a stroke-play competition: ..."

Therefore, Rule 5.2 specifically states "competition". Therefore, if a player is simply handing in 2 general play scores in a single day, does Rule 5.2b actually apply?
 

mikejohnchapman

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Interesting, as I know several players who have submitted 2 general play scores in a day. I know one guy that does it frequently (he submits in excess of 25 scores a month, probably over 30 scores most times). I'm sure there have even been discussions on this forum about people having 2 scores on the same day, and the discussion was centred around which one is dropped first once they become the 20th and 21st oldest scores (apparently the software dropped them off in the wrong order). I never remember anyone flagging that the 2nd round in the day, if on the same course, should be unacceptable.

Does the software (MyEG, howdidido, etc) not have any restrictions in disallowing the second round? If not, it would seem like an easy enough thing to do.

In my opinion, however, it does sound harsh to disallow the second round. I completely see the reason for it in competitions. But, I didn't realise the rules of handicapping were that strict, that they didn't want a player to go out and practice before a general play round (God forbid a player would want to do that), when it gives them no competitive edge over other players.
There is a wrinkle in Club V1 here. Our ladies championship is held over 27 holes on 1 day. 18 in the morning and 9 in the afternoon over different courses. 1 Competition. Club V1 cannot do this so they have to be loaded as 2 separate comps and that causes problems with recognition of rounds in the correct order.
 

rosecott

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There is a wrinkle in Club V1 here. Our ladies championship is held over 27 holes on 1 day. 18 in the morning and 9 in the afternoon over different courses. 1 Competition. Club V1 cannot do this so they have to be loaded as 2 separate comps and that causes problems with recognition of rounds in the correct order.
I did my best to persuade you to switch to Handicapmaster.
 

rulie

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This isn't a software issue. It should be handled easily by the Committee - the old fashioned way - manually.
 

rulefan

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they have to be loaded as 2 separate comps and that causes problems with recognition of rounds in the correct order.
Isn't that just a quirk of the presentation in WHS? I'm sure I have seen other comments re the issue. I thought the calculations were done in the correct chronological sequence.
So handicaps would be OK but the overall comp winner(s) could be done manually?
 
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