Winter Rules

[delc]

Our winter rules allow relief for a plugged ball anywhere through the green. On closely mown areas you can lift clean and place within 6" NNTH, or in the rough you drop as close as possible to the original position NNTH. Would I be entitled to relief again if the ball rolls back into the pitch mark?

Also can I repair the pitchmark before placing or dropping, or would that infringe Rule 13-2?

 

[duncan mackie]

yes
no
yes

 

[ruff-driver]

The player is only entitled to prefer the lie once, so the spot on which to place the ball must be chosen carefully! The ball is in play as soon as it is placed on the ground. If the player picks it up again and moves it, he would incur a penalty stroke for moving his ball in play and the ball must be replaced (Rule 18-2a).

 

[rulefan]

Our winter rules allow relief for a plugged ball anywhere through the green. On closely mown areas you can lift clean and place within 6" NNTH, or in the rough you drop as close as possible to the original position NNTH. Would I be entitled to relief again if the ball rolls back into the pitch mark?

Also can I repair the pitchmark before placing or dropping, or would that infringe Rule 13-2?

You are mixing up a number of different Rules, only one of which is designated a Winter Rule.

1) Relief for an embedded ball in a closely mown area is not a Local Rule but is Rule 25-2 Embedded Ball.
The ball must be dropped ANAP NNTH.

2) That Rule may be extended by a Local Rule to through the green. Appendix I Part B 4a) Relief for Embedded Ball.
Again the ball must be dropped ANAP NNTH

3) Is the Local Rule which allows Lift, Clean and Place on a closely mown area. Appendix I Part B 4c) 'Preferred Lies' and 'Winter Rules'.
The ball must be placed within the specified distance NNTH

 

[rulefan]

.. in the rough you drop as close as possible to the original position NNTH. Would I be entitled to relief again if the ball rolls back into the pitch mark?

See Decisions 25-2/2.5 and 25-2/3
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-25/#d25-2-2.5

 

[delc]

The player is only entitled to prefer the lie once, so the spot on which to place the ball must be chosen carefully! The ball is in play as soon as it is placed on the ground. If the player picks it up again and moves it, he would incur a penalty stroke for moving his ball in play and the ball must be replaced (Rule 18-2a).

I was thinking more about the case of dropping the ball in the rough, when you have less control over where the ball finishes.

 

[rulefan]

The player is only entitled to prefer the lie once, so the spot on which to place the ball must be chosen carefully! The ball is in play as soon as it is placed on the ground. If the player picks it up again and moves it, he would incur a penalty stroke for moving his ball in play and the ball must be replaced (Rule 18-2a).

But if it simply won't remain at rest, then it must be placed where it will remain at rest; without penalty

 

[delc]

But if it simply won't remain at rest, then it must be placed where it will remain at rest; without penalty

Suppose for the sake of argument that my ball plugs in the rough on a slight downslope. I lift the ball and drop it just behind the original spot so it is NNTH, but it bounces or rolls forward and re-enters the plug mark. It's still NNTH and hasn't rolled more than two club lengths. Surely I am not expected to play it from a condition I have just taken relief from, am I?

 

[rulefan]

Suppose for the sake of argument that my ball plugs in the rough on a slight downslope. I lift the ball and drop it just behind the original spot so it is NNTH, but it bounces or rolls forward and re-enters the plug mark. It's still NNTH and hasn't rolled more than two club lengths. Surely I am not expected to play it from a condition I have just taken relief from, am I?

No. Did you read the answer to 25-2/3?

 

[Foxholer]

Suppose for the sake of argument that my ball plugs in the rough on a slight downslope. I lift the ball and drop it just behind the original spot so it is NNTH, but it bounces or rolls forward and re-enters the plug mark. It's still NNTH and hasn't rolled more than two club lengths. Surely I am not expected to play it from a condition I have just taken relief from, am I?

The question is...Is it imbedded in its own pitch mark. In you hypothetical case, I believe it is, so you would get to drop it again. In the case of 25-2/3, I believe it is not 'imbedded in its own pitchmark (merely one from a previous shot)', which is why the decision says 'tough'!

@Rulefan. 25-2/3 isn't really the same thing, as another stroke has been made - as opposed to Del's instance where it is simply the drop - which is back in its own pitchmark.

 

[rulefan]

The question is...Is it imbedded in its own pitch mark. In you hypothetical case, I believe it is, so you would get to drop it again. In the case of 25-2/3, I believe it is not 'imbedded in its own pitchmark (merely one from a previous shot)', which is why the decision says 'tough'!

@Rulefan. 25-2/3 isn't really the same thing, as another stroke has been made - as opposed to Del's instance where it is simply the drop - which is back in its own pitchmark.

25-2/3 says:-

A player is only entitled to relief under Rule 25-2 when his ball is embedded in a pitch-mark created by the last stroke he made. Delc's situation exactly.

 

[Region3]

Is it not the case that a dropped ball cannot come to rest nearer the hole than the place where it first strikes the course, even if that place is still not nearer the hole than the place where relief was taken from?

Or have I got me kecks in a twist confusing it with something else?

 

[Foxholer]

25-2/3 says:-

A player is only entitled to relief under Rule 25-2 when his ball is embedded in a pitch-mark created by the last stroke he made. Delc's situation exactly.

Doh! Forgot we were dealing with Del! And my laziness of not reading both the Q and the A didn't help! 25-2/3 isn't the same situation, but the answer covers both situations.

@Region3 Nope. Kecks in a twist! Rule 20.

 

[backwoodsman]

If, when dropped, the ball rolls back into the pitchmark, doesn't rule 20-2 c v about redropping apply ? (Isn't that what delc is describing?)

 

[backwoodsman]

If, when dropped, the ball rolls back into the pitchmark, doesn't rule 20-2 c v about redropping apply ? (Isn't that what delc is describing?)

Meant to add... If not, why not? What am I missing?

 

[rulefan]

Meant to add... If not, why not? What am I missing?

You are not missing anything. The principle is described in Dec 25-2/2.5 which I mentioned in my original replay to delc.

 

[SammmeBee]

When is ANAP deemed to be not ANAP - drop again?

 

[rulefan]

Is it not the case that a dropped ball cannot come to rest nearer the hole than the place where it first strikes the course, even if that place is still not nearer the hole than the place where relief was taken from?

Or have I got me kecks in a twist confusing it with something else?

There is no problem with it bouncing forward from the spot it first hits the ground but it must not finish nearer than the reference point. Of course, the spot it hits must not be nearer the hole than the original lie.


See 20-2b & c

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/

 

[rulefan]

When is ANAP deemed to be not ANAP - drop again?

There is no fixed distance. But depending on the height of drop and the physical condition of the player, a couple of inches or so would be OK.
Redrop if outside that area.

 

[Colin L]

If, when dropped, the ball rolls back into the pitchmark, doesn't rule 20-2 c v about redropping apply ? (Isn't that what delc is describing?)

Yes, that's the applicable Rule and as it is specific there is no need for a Decision regarding a ball rolling back into its own pitch mark from a drop. But as Rulefan says, it is what underpins the statement in D25-2/3.