winter rules on the green

[dejf]

Hi!

Is it possible to have a winter rule that a flag stick can remain in the hole even when players are putting - i.e. they are not penalized for holing out with flag inside the hole?

Sounds very weird to me as I thought that no local rule including any winter rule should cancel or be be against a rule of golf unless authorized by R&A.

Is such a winter rule a common thing?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For competitive rounds then the flag must be out or attended but for social and non comp rounds a lot of clubs in winter request that the flag be left in or out in their local winter rules.

 

[rulefan]

[h=2]33-8/10[/h] [h=4]Local Rule Prohibiting Removal of Flagstick[/h]Q.May a Committee make a Local Rule for winter-time play prohibiting removal of the flagstick? The purpose would be to reduce traffic around the hole in the winter when the putting greens are very soft.

A.No. Such a Local Rule would modify the Rules of Golf.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

[h=2]33-8/10[/h] [h=4]Local Rule Prohibiting Removal of Flagstick[/h]Q.May a Committee make a Local Rule for winter-time play prohibiting removal of the flagstick? The purpose would be to reduce traffic around the hole in the winter when the putting greens are very soft.

A.No. Such a Local Rule would modify the Rules of Golf.

For competitions only ?

 

[pbrown7582]

we do this for social golf but comps the flag has to be removed

 

[dejf]

I see, thanks! So, if I understand that correctly, in case of a player who plays social golf round, but also wants to submit a card for a handicap, the flag has to be removed for him to prevent penalty.

 

[delc]

I see, thanks! So, if I understand that correctly, in case of a player who plays social golf round, but also wants to submit a card for a handicap, the flag has to be removed for him to prevent penalty.

One of my suggestions in the bigger hole debate was to make the hole larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flagstick when it is in the hole. With the standard 4.25" hole I still prefer to have the flag out or attended when putting in Winter, because there is too much chance of of the ball bouncing off the stick and not going in the hole, if it left in. Once in a while an overly hard struck chip or long putt will hit the stick square on and go in when otherwise it would have jumped over the hole, but the probability of this happening is too low to bother with.

 

[rulefan]

For competitions only ?

It is a rule of golf. It has nothing to do with competitions.

Do what you like, when you like but ignoring them is not playing by the rules.

 

[rulefan]

I see, thanks! So, if I understand that correctly, in case of a player who plays social golf round, but also wants to submit a card for a handicap, the flag has to be removed for him to prevent penalty.

Yes, if you are submitting a Supplementary Score or a card for initial handicap allocation, it would not be acceptable.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It is a rule of golf. It has nothing to do with competitions.

Do what you like, when you like but ignoring them is not playing by the rules.

It's a local rule brought in by the club and understand been verified by the county as long as it isn't used when qualifying comps are on

 

[dejf]

One of my suggestions in the bigger hole debate was to make the hole larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flagstick when it is in the hole. With the standard 4.25" hole I still prefer to have the flag out or attended when putting in Winter, because there is too much chance of of the ball bouncing off the stick and not going in the hole, if it left in. Once in a while an overly hard struck chip or long putt will hit the stick square on and go in when otherwise it would have jumped over the hole, but the probability of this happening is too low to bother with.

A bigger hole debate? Have not heard about that one ... but trying to imagine such a bigger hole, I think it would ruin it for me.

 

[rulefan]

It's a local rule brought in by the club and understand been verified by the county as long as it isn't used when qualifying comps are on

The county have no authority to 'verify' an unauthorised Rule. It is not within their remit. They can certainly say it cannot be used when qualifiers are being run as that is a handicapping issue but they have no responsibility for the Rules of Golf.

I suggest they are indicating that your club should 'just do it'. They are washing their hands of any consequences. Neither they nor the R&A would arbitrate or make any decisions on any rules issues that may arise when the Rules of Golf are not being followed.
However, they should have pointed out that any non-qualifiers run at this time should not be used as part of the Annual Review support information.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The county have no authority to 'verify' an unauthorised Rule. It is not within their remit. They can certainly say it cannot be used when qualifiers are being run as that is a handicapping issue but they have no responsibility for the Rules of Golf.

I suggest they are indicating that your club should 'just do it'. They are washing their hands of any consequences. Neither they nor the R&A would arbitrate or make any decisions on any rules issues that may arise when the Rules of Golf are not being followed.
However, they should have pointed out that any non-qualifiers run at this time should not be used as part of the Annual Review support information.

Don't use them as a part of an annual review anyway regardless of whether the flag is allowed to be left in or not

 

[rulefan]

With the standard 4.25" hole I still prefer to have the flag out or attended when putting in Winter, because there is too much chance of of the ball bouncing off the stick and not going in the hole, if it left in. Once in a while an overly hard struck chip or long putt will hit the stick square on and go in when otherwise it would have jumped over the hole, but the probability of this happening is too low to bother with.

The USGA experimented (perhaps 40 years ago ) with permitting players to leave flagstick in for putts-- although a majority of players would take out or have the flagstick removed on putts, the USGA stats on the subject showed leaving flag in on all putts created a material advantage and so they dropped the Rule.

Of course a ball that would have run over the hole will always finish nearer the hole after hitting the flagstick than it would if there was nothing to absorb the energy.

 

[woody69]

One of my suggestions in the bigger hole debate was to make the hole larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flagstick when it is in the hole. With the standard 4.25" hole I still prefer to have the flag out or attended when putting in Winter, because there is too much chance of of the ball bouncing off the stick and not going in the hole, if it left in. Once in a while an overly hard struck chip or long putt will hit the stick square on and go in when otherwise it would have jumped over the hole, but the probability of this happening is too low to bother with.

Leaving the flag stick in INCREASES the chances of the ball dropping.

http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

 

[Fish]

It's a local rule brought in by the club and understand been verified by the county as long as it isn't used when qualifying comps are on

Seems pretty conclusive to me that you shouldn't be doing it as a committee cannot make a Local Rule for winter-time play prohibiting the removal of the flagstick as its not playing to the Rules of Golf and even the county cannot verify a change of The Rules!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Seems pretty conclusive to me that you shouldn't be doing it as a committee cannot make a Local Rule for winter-time play prohibiting the removal of the flagstick as its not playing to the Rules of Golf and even the county cannot verify a change of The Rules!

If it keeps the footfall around the holes and protect the greens a little during the wet months then no issue for me and it's only in non comp golf ( club matchplays etc will not be able to leave the flag in )

 

[Fish]

If it keeps the footfall around the holes and protect the greens a little during the wet months then no issue for me and it's only in non comp golf ( club matchplays etc will not be able to leave the flag in )

You keep mentioning "non comp golf", is that when we can all not play by the rules then, surely we should always play by the rules other than when a committee has the power to change something to a local ruling, which in this case they can't!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You keep mentioning "non comp golf", is that when we can all not play by the rules then, surely we should always play by the rules other than when a committee has the power to change something to a local ruling, which in this case they can't!

Do you ever play gimmies in swindles ?

The committee and golf director have made it part of our winter rules - that won't change.

 

[dejf]

I think what Liverpoolphil is trying to say is that there are many other fun/informal forms of play - like you could hardly find Texas Scramble format in the rule book, yet it is played. I have also seen a fun tournament game (not played against HCP) that penalized a player 2 shots on every hole on which he/she refused to drink snorter of some hard stuff. For sure, these are not rounds of "golf" anymore, but people enjoy them. Should not be and can not be mixed with submitting cards for HCP or alike.

On the other hand, I disagree that leaving a flag in a hole can prevent any kind of damage to green - I think you are always closest to the hole when you are picking up your ball from the hole. Better idea to do it is to allow gimmies within certain range.

Having said that, I can't see how (or why) these rules for fun rounds can make it into something official like local/winter rules. That does not make really a sense to me. People will tend to believe that it is OK to use such "rules" in competitions.