winter rules ok...

[backwoodsman]

Under normal winter rules, you can pick and place the ball if it's on close mown areas of the course. And you can do it only the once (per shot that is). If it moves after you put it down, tough. This all as per the specimen local rule.

But at our place, we occasionally have periods when the course is so wet that the rule is extended to the whole course through the green. (So wet in places, that if the ball doesn't plug of it's own accord, then it's likely the fish will stamp it down anyway). So you can pick and place in the rough too. But a member claims that if the 'through the green' extension applies, then if you're placing in the rough, if the ball moves after you've placed it, you can put it back onto the spot you originally placed it back. Ie you can keep placing it until it stays where it's put.

I'm sure it's codswollop - but can anyone think of any good reason why it might not be?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

As far as I'm aware you can only place it once regardless of where you are on the course in terms of pick and place

 

[Imurg]

Pick and Place I Pick and Place, not pick, place,pick,place until you're happy..

Either way its not real golf so don't play or money

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Pick and Place I Pick and Place, not pick, place,pick,place until you're happy..

Either way its not real golf so don't play or money

Not real golf ?

 

[williamalex1]

If the ball moves nearer the hole after you place, I would think you could replace. But the norm is once you place, it's in play.

 

[backwoodsman]

All a bit annoying. I advised a player in a casual game that he shouldn't do it after spotting him putting the ball back on to a tuft of grass for a second time. Along the lines of "I wouldn't do that in a competition..." . He then later asked another player who said it was ok when "through the green is in force". So now I have two of the blghters who think I'm talking cobblers about the rules.

 

[daymond]

I suggest you get the committee to put up notices setting out exactly what you can and cannot do under this local rule.

 

[Imurg]

Not real golf ?

If you're having to pick and place in the rough then it's not real golf, its a walk in the Country chasing a little white ball around a soggy field....

 

[rulefan]

Under normal winter rules, you can pick and place the ball if it's on close mown areas of the course. And you can do it only the once (per shot that is). If it moves after you put it down, tough. This all as per the specimen local rule.

But at our place, we occasionally have periods when the course is so wet that the rule is extended to the whole course through the green. (So wet in places, that if the ball doesn't plug of it's own accord, then it's likely the fish will stamp it down anyway). So you can pick and place in the rough too. But a member claims that if the 'through the green' extension applies, then if you're placing in the rough, if the ball moves after you've placed it, you can put it back onto the spot you originally placed it back. Ie you can keep placing it until it stays where it's put.

I'm sure it's codswollop - but can anyone think of any good reason why it might not be?

Apart from the fact that the local rule cannot legally be extended to TTG the rest of the words have not changed, so what is the basis for such nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If you're having to pick and place in the rough then it's not real golf, its a walk in the Country chasing a little white ball around a soggy field....

In the rough I sort of see your point - put it in the rough and deal with the punishment

No probs with pick and place on fairway

 

[backwoodsman]

Apart from the fact that the local rule cannot legally be extended to TTG the rest of the words have not changed, so what is the basis for such nonsense.

Why can't there be a local rule which gives preferred lies TTG?

 

[Colin L]

Why can't there be a local rule which gives preferred lies TTG?

Because there is no authority in the Rules for doing so.

 

[williamalex1]

Because there is no authority in the Rules for doing so.

We play lift and place everywhere [ie through the green ] except in hazards when conditions are really bad , but not in qualifying comps.

 

[backwoodsman]

Because there is no authority in the Rules for doing so.

Does not Appendix 1 (Local Rules) section 4b say "... may decide to grant relief by temporary local rule to protect the course ...". Ok, the specimen local rule only mentions closely mown areas but "the course" is a defined term and includes the rough? Seems like authority to have a local rule which also includes the rough ?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Does not Appendix 1 (Local Rules) section 4b say "... may decide to grant relief by temporary local rule to protect the course ...". Ok, the specimen local rule only mentions closely mown areas but "the course" is a defined term and includes the rough? Seems like authority to have a local rule which also includes the rough ?

How does winter rules protect the course? I always thought winter rules was to aid playability by allowing people to clean mud off the ball or move away from a bad lie due to adverse conditions, nothing to do with protecting the course.

 

[Imurg]

Because there is no authority in the Rules for doing so.

Only as far as qualifiers go - if it's about keeping the course open for general play then there's no problem is there?

 

[Colin L]

The Rules don't recognise qualifiers or non-qualifiers - that's a handicapping matter in the remit of CONGU. Quite simply the Rules don't authorise a local rule for preferred lies through the green so the Committee of a club should not introduce one. That doesn't mean no Committee will and if it does, it should certainly not hold a qualifying round with it in place as that would contravene CONGU regulations.

That's how it is regarding the Rules. What is done on a golf course in the winter amongst consenting adults may be a different matter.

 

[Foxholer]

The Rules don't recognise qualifiers or non-qualifiers - that's a handicapping matter in the remit of CONGU. Quite simply the Rules don't authorise a local rule for preferred lies through the green so the Committee of a club should not introduce one. That doesn't mean no Committee will and if it does, it should certainly not hold a qualifying round with it in place as that would contravene CONGU regulations.

That's how it is regarding the Rules. What is done on a golf course in the winter amongst consenting adults may be a different matter.

I agree totally (no surprise)!

There's a difference between taking all bunkers out of play as GUR - thus making any comp NQ, but not defying any Rule of Golf - and extending 'Preferred Lies' to TTG - thus breaking a Rule of Golf. Gimmees or non-removal of flags - both deemed to 'protect the greens during inclement weather' - are other examples of the sort of thing that Clubs have been known to use. The bunch I play with always use gimmees anyway and often 'pick clean and place' in the rough, but we recognise that it's 'against the Rules'.

There is another LR available that is legit though. Plugged in the Rough LR can (and imo should) be used through the Winter quite legitimately.

As for the question in the OP; notwithstanding its illegality, the guy was almost certainly talking tosh. Only possible exception would be where ball moves nearer the hole, where re-placement would be required.

 

[rulefan]

If it moves after you put it down, tough. This all as per the specimen local rule.

We must be careful about what is meant (in the context of preferred lies) by 'moved'. Although it is defined, it is often used sloppily in a situation where the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed. Rule 20-3d covers both and should be shown to the dissenting member.

20-3d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:
(i) except in a hazard must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies,unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

 

[backwoodsman]

We must be careful about what is meant (in the context of preferred lies) by 'moved'. Although it is defined, it is often used sloppily in a situation where the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed. Rule 20-3d covers both and should be shown to the dissenting member.

20-3d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:
(i) except in a hazard must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies,unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

Ah, the dangers of trying to be brief when posting. "if it moves, tough" was supposed to be shorthand for the red bit above.

As to the main thing, sorry but I am not trying to be pedantic - I just seem to be missing something you all seem to know and am seeking elucidation. Am just wondering where or how the authority, or lack of it, derives? If the standard "preferred lies" local rule is not breaking the rules of golf, which rules, not broken by the standard model, would be broken by a practically identical rule which, in essence, differs only due to the length of the grass.

I'm looking in the rules, the appendices, and the decisions, but am not finding. Or at least not seeing. If it can be explained in simple terms, I promise to try to understand...