Why do the Left hate Grammar schools so much..

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Farmergeddon

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It all seems common sense to me, For the Olympics they got the best kids together with the best coaches, result is a world class team. Ergo, get the most intelligent kids with the best teachers we get a world class economy. Those suited to academia go to Grammar schools those who arent go to secondary schools and on to apprenticeships we need the top brains to push Britain forward... The same education for every child idea is laudable but is like Communism it just dosent work in practise.. I come from Ripon the only place to actually have a vote on the Grammar school the ayes won with about 80%.. after that result the plan was scrapped.. And before you ask I went to the other place over the road..
 
It's not just the left, plenty oppose them. They split society, they dump a group into second class status, scarred at 11. Does everyone who fails the 11+ want to be an apprentice? What patronising nonsense.

People progress at different ages. Poor at 11, average at 13, top of the class at 16. Don't stifle those people.

I went to a good comprehensive, my kids do now. They are pushed, streamed but mix with all groups. None of us have been held back. Don't turn this into a class war, it's not unless you imagine it to be.
 
Farmergeddon said:
Ergo, get the most intelligent kids with the best teachers we get a world class economy.
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Would love to provide a full answer to this, but can you help with the below please?:

Define "intelligence".

Define "best teachers".

If you could also make a case linking academic performance to economic growth, that would be great. Thanks.
 
Intelligence is easy- its the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. The second is a bit more difficult but it has to be assumed that having the most intelligent people in the correct and top jobs will move the whole economy upwards. Competition is the prime mover for this, wanting to have a better life for a family is what drives some people.
 
Big assumption there LT. where is your proof they split society?? I lived through a failed 11+ my friends were and are still drawn from both schools nobody I know has been scarred by failing the exam, its the parents ( who care ) that find a problem with it, left to the kids it wouldnt be a problem. and as for your poor, average, top comment that just shows your ignorance of the system. There is cross over between schools right through the school life where any anomalies are sorted out.. AND you final sentence shows your doubts about the present system when you used the word 'Good'.
=
 
I was bought up on a rough council estate, one of 5, no money in the house, no father from the age of 5. I passed my 11+ (with no extra tuition) and I absolutely want a grammar education to be available everywhere!

Good for The government rolling this out, I would just like to see them in poorer communities so that it would enable more bright poorer kids have the opportunity to go to them
 
Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, Sarah Woolaston, Ben Howlet, Mark Pritchard, Robin Walker, Niel Carmichael, Sir Micheal Wilshaw, just to start with. Yip, lefties all...
Boy am i glad to be out of this circus.
In my humble opinion and i think you will find, the humble opinion of the majority of teachers, returning to a binary secondary education system, would be a retrograde step.
But what do we know. After all, if you have a leaky tap, call a joiner. We all know that, right ?? :rolleyes:
 
Well thats the other thing of course, if Grammar schools came back in sufficient numbers it would practically bring an end to Private Schools... they are nearly pricing themselves out of business anyway so if people can get a good education for their kids without the outlay thats what will happen.
 
It's always good to have success stories and it's great that you and chrisd benefitted from Grammars.
However let's compare it with the Olympics as you say.
Many people loved the success the UK had - brilliant. But some of us queried the inequality of the funding meaning other athletes from poorer nations didn't win medals not because of their skills but because we had better facilities.
That point was countered by mention of tons of cash being spent at grass roots level ensuring all the funding didn't go in one direction.
If we compare that to bringing back a Grammar system there will need to be a lot of investment ensure everything is in place with the best teachers and facilities aimed at maximising the performance of those showing potential at a young age.
In our current education system that, by definition, can only come by taking money away from the second tier schools.
There will be approximately 4 or 5 times as many pupils in these schools compared with the lucky few.
If you turned round and said we will increase the funding to academies to ensure they are delivering, and anything left over can go to Grammars, I would happily agree with you.
But to put something in place which will reduce the quality of education to the majority, and aid a selected minority is against everything the country stands for.
 
Bes. if you have a leaky tap, call a joiner. We all know that, right ?? Well depends, if the joiner installed the system and it worked great until it fell into the hands of Plumber who decided it didnt fit with his politics..
 
Farmergeddon said:
Well thats the other thing of course, if Grammar schools came back in sufficient numbers it would practically bring an end to Private Schools... they are nearly pricing themselves out of business anyway so if people can get a good education for their kids without the outlay thats what will happen.
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Hmmm.

No.

Brighton College have recently set up a prep school in Dubai, I believe.

They are set up to get top top results and introduce next generation leaders to each other.

Incredibly elitist - even the other local independent schools don't try and compete with their model.

But they never have problems filling their quota.

If you want to put more money into estate education take the charity status away from independent schools and ensure the business rates collected get distributed at the local state schools.

Then you may be getting nearer the right funding levels to support Grammars.
 
We really don't want to risk upsetting a few people so let's all pander to the liberal lefties and set the bar at the lowest common denominator. After all, competition is a dirty word these days and should not be encouraged!

As long as there is money in the economy there will be public schools and there will be competition in life whether it's in sport or for the best jobs or to win orders to keep the economy strong.

That's how it is people, learn to deal with it.
 
All that happens is that pushy middle class parents put an enormous amount of pressure and spend money on private tutors for their kids to get into grammar schools now. The Tories wanting to bring these back are harking back to the good old days when they were at school where there was more of a chance of kids from less affluent backgrounds getting into grammar schools. Now you can just about buy your way in (move into catchment areas, private tutors), putting enormous stress on your kids whilst you do it. Yes there may well be some kids from poorer backgrounds who may end up at a grammar school, but the vast majority of places will go to middle class parents with sharp elbows.

And this will leave the rest to take their chances at the local secondary modern/comp who I'm guessing won't attract the best teachers. The original grammars got voted down because the public did not like the concept of effectively condemning children at age 11. I'm pretty sure that is not an issue to some tories/right wingers in their dog eat dog world. But all the best education systems in the world (Finland, Canada) do not have schools that select on ability, they just fund and respect education for all. And surprisingly enough that works. Yes there is not a lot of money to be made in that system which may upset some right wingers, but the kids get a good education. Over here we have LA maintained comps, foundation schools, academies, free schools, church schools, secondary moderns, grammars, private schools. Pure competition, market forces and choice is great if you are selling products to make a profit, but not so great when the losers in the system are young kids who have their life chances screwed at such an early age.

And as for 'liberal lefties' opposing grammars then see post number 7. Plus it will never get through the Lords anyway so it is mostly a waste of time.
 
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drive4show said:
We really don't want to risk upsetting a few people so let's all pander to the liberal lefties and set the bar at the lowest common denominator. After all, competition is a dirty word these days and should not be encouraged!

As long as there is money in the economy there will be public schools and there will be competition in life whether it's in sport or for the best jobs or to win orders to keep the economy strong.

That's how it is people, learn to deal with it.
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Perhaps I'm wrong, but i thought the OP was discussing the reintroduction of "state" grammar schools. Not the abolition of the private sector.
A system of state education abolished by the great queen of the right, if i remember rightly. :mmm:

Interestingly i seam to remember the right applauding the decision. After all its typical of liberal lefties to want something for nothing, whilst the hard working right understand you have to pay for decent education.
It's high time we kept politics out of state education. Let professional educationalists decide whats best. Its what they do.
Anyway thats all i have to say on the subject, I'm not getting drawn in, its no longer my concern, and deep seated resentments will only rise to the surface which won't end well for me, i thinks.
As Dewsweeper so rightly an kindly reminded me with his far superior maturity. Life's to short to fall out. :thup: :)
 
Why not set about repairing and improving what we already have rather than role out a new two tiered education system. Children develop at different ages and a failed 11+ doesn't mean that child couldn't go on and be a future high flyer with a university education ahead. Some may get through the 11+ and absolutely sink without trace in the ruthlessness of a grammar education and be better off in the more "mainstream" system and as a result perhaps never achieve what they are capable of in terms of qualifications as the grammar education passes them by
 
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