WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

rosecott

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Here goes......
A couple of months ago I joined the Handicap and Competitions committee at my club who use Intelligent Golf.
I'm really enjoying the role and I'm learning quickly. I'm hoping one of the forum members will kindly assist with my question. (Message has been sent to IG but no reply as yet)
Club individual stroke play competition, player mistakenly enters their Course Handicap on their scorecard as 17 (Playing Handicap 16) when in fact it should be 18/17. Player bogies all 18 holes for 90 gross.
Under rule 3.3b(4) player's net score stands using the lower handicap (Not DQ) When player or committee enter players score into IG the software obviously doesn't know that the wrong handicap has been written on scorecard and shows total score as net 73 instead of net 74 using the lower handicap.
Is there a way to amend the net score to match the handicap on the card without changing one of the gross scores on the individual holes which I'm trying to avoid?
Thanks
We use Handicapmaster in which you can call up the player's scorecard and reduce the Playing Handicap in such a case. I would be surprised if IG does not have the same function. Perhaps the function is there but not easy to find.
 

wjemather

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We use Handicapmaster in which you can call up the player's scorecard and reduce the Playing Handicap in such a case. I would be surprised if IG does not have the same function. Perhaps the function is there but not easy to find.
As far as I know, neither IG nor ClubV1 have a function that allows the competition committee to reduce a player's course handicap (and therefore playing handicap) based on an incorrectly completed scorecard (as required by the rules).
 

rosecott

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As far as I know, neither IG nor ClubV1 have a function that allows the competition committee to reduce a player's course handicap (and therefore playing handicap) based on an incorrectly completed scorecard (as required by the rules).
The "scissors" button allows you to reduce the Playing Handicap only. The Course Handicap cannot be altered. On this dummy scorecard, I reduced the Playing Handicap from 8 to 7.

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As far as I know, neither IG nor ClubV1 have a function that allows the competition committee to reduce a player's course handicap (and therefore playing handicap) based on an incorrectly completed scorecard (as required by the rules).
Thanks for reply, let’s hope IG customer support come back with a fix.... 👍👍
 

wjemather

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The "scissors" button allows you to reduce the Playing Handicap only. The Course Handicap cannot be altered. On this dummy scorecard, I reduced the Playing Handicap from 8 to 7.
To be in true accordance with the rules, it should be the Course Handicap that is able to be manipulated, but at least you are able to produce the desired result in HM.
 

rulefan

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To be in true accordance with the rules, it should be the Course Handicap that is able to be manipulated, but at least you are able to produce the desired result in HM.
Why does the CH need to be manipulated? Surely the WHS uses the CH in it's database? The PH adjustment simply affects the Handicap Master record.
 

wjemather

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Why does the CH need to be manipulated? Surely the WHS uses the CH in it's database? The PH adjustment simply affects the Handicap Master record.
Why wouldn't you want the software to allow the CH to be adjusted, rather than relying on a human to apply the PH allowance correctly? Only allowing PH adjustment creates huge potential for errors, especially in single ball team formats. (Different in Scotland, of course, due to the use of the unrounded CH, which I'd hope SG have accounted for with their supplier.)

RoG and all the relevant interpretations & guidance dictate that CH is the handicap requirement on the scorecard - so logic dictates that this is what should be changed in the event of a lower one appearing on the scorecard.
 
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rulefan

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Why wouldn't you want the software to allow the CH to be adjusted, rather than relying on a human to apply the PH allowance correctly? Only allowing PH adjustment creates huge potential for errors, especially in single ball team formats. (Different in Scotland, of course, due to the use of the unrounded CH, which I'd hope SG have accounted for with their supplier.)

RoG and all the relevant interpretations & guidance dictate that CH is the handicap requirement on the scorecard - so logic dictates that this is what should be changed in the event of an lower one appearing on the scorecard.
Surely WHS is about measuring an individual player's quality of play over time and therefore a score should be related to a true handicap. That is the figure stored by WHS.
The PH is only used to determine the result of a competition. ie the relative performance of the players in the competition. Therefore that should be the correctable figure.
 

wjemather

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Surely WHS is about measuring an individual player's quality of play over time and therefore a score should be related to a true handicap. That is the figure stored by WHS.
The PH is only used to determine the result of a competition. ie the relative performance of the players in the competition. Therefore that should be the correctable figure.
I think you are conflating issues. What WHS does is of no relevance to the competition. It will receive the same information from the ISV (i.e just gross hole scores without any handicap info) regardless of what handicap (index/course/playing) is applied in the ISV.

Multi-day competitions illustrate this clearly, with the handicap at the start being used throughout whereas WHS will recalculate after each round/day.
 
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Thanks again for your replies, the only time we need to change the CH is when the player writes the wrong CH on their Scorecard.
By changing the CH for competition administration only it does not affect the adjusted gross for their score differential calculation but it would if I changed a gross score to make the net score correct.
Imagine in my example of player scoring 18 bogies for gross 90 would have an adjusted gross of 90 entered onto the WHS record. If I changed one of the bogies to a par to balance up the error made on the scorecard ie CH recorded as 17 instead of 18 (playing handicap of 16 instead of 17) then this would bring his adjusted gross down to 89 and affect the score differential. I definitely don't want to do this.
So in my example in the comp the player would have the following result - Gross 90 minus 16 (95% of 17) giving player a net 74 in comp. If they had put their correct CH on scorecard their result would be Gross 90 minus 17 (95% of 18) giving a net score of 73.
Anyway, a response from IG has been received saying there is currently no option to amend a players playing handicap on the system but they will investigate further and provide us with an update in due course.
 

rulefan

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I think you are conflating issues. What WHS does is of no relevance to the competition. It will receive the same information from the ISV (i.e just gross hole scores without any handicap info) regardless of what handicap (index/course/playing) is applied in the ISV.

Multi-day competitions illustrate this clearly, with the handicap at the start being used throughout whereas WHS will recalculate after each round/day.
Yes. But PH affects the result of the comp. CH does not. Why not simply change the PH in the ISV, surely that is all that is needed.

PS Which is what IG seem to have in mind and HM already does.
 
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Yes. But PH affects the result of the comp. CH does not. Why not simply change the PH in the ISV, surely that is all that is needed.

PS Which is what IG seem to have in mind and HM already does.
Using IG we’re not able to change CH or PH at all (Now confirmed by IG) that was the original reason for the post prior to receiving reply from IG.

An incorrect CH will affect the result of comp as players use this incorrect number to work out their PH.

If a players true CH is 9 and they write 8 on their Scorecard which gives them a PH of 8 in a singles comp then their net score will be correct for their CH of 8 but wrong for their true CH of 9. Or am I missing something?
 

wjemather

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Yes. But PH affects the result of the comp. CH does not. Why not simply change the PH in the ISV, surely that is all that is needed.
CH is not applied directly, but of course it affects the comp result since PH is derived from CH.

I already covered why changing CH makes more sense in #1,427 - e.g. why would you want to manually recalculate a 4 person team scramble handicap instead of adjusting the one player's CH and letting the software do the rest?

As hinted, I'd be interested to know how the rules should be applied in jurisdictions where the unrounded CH is used to calculate PH (e.g. Scotland), when the rounded CH will be on the scorecard.
 
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rulefan

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As hinted, I'd be interested to know how the rules should be applied in jurisdictions where the unrounded CH is used to calculate PH (e.g. Scotland), when the rounded CH will be on the scorecard.
Not being in Scotland I don't know how the CH displays in the SG app/software. As I understand it, the ISVs there have been replaced by Scottish Golf software.
But I can see why HM & IG would concentrate on PH as they are only concerned with that item.
 

chrisd

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A question that's probably been asked but I haven't seen it myself

If a club has a comp where the maximum handicap is say 18 and, say, a 25 handicapper enters, is the players handicap then reduced from the 18 he's required to reduce to and then further by the % reduction for the type of comp eg matchplay. So would he then play off say 16?
 

wjemather

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A question that's probably been asked but I haven't seen it myself

If a club has a comp where the maximum handicap is say 18 and, say, a 25 handicapper enters, is the players handicap then reduced from the 18 he's required to reduce to and then further by the % reduction for the type of comp eg matchplay. So would he then play off say 16?
It would depend on how the handicap limit is specified in the terms of competition - Index, Course or Playing.
 

wjemather

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So its purely down to the club whether they incorporate the % reduction within their 18 handicap comp rule?
Yes. The recommendation is to use Handicap Index since players should know what that is. The committee can then set their limit such that is achieves their desired Playing Handicap limit; e.g. for an 18 playing handicap limit from the White tees for men at our course, the index limit would be 17.3 for individual events (95%) or 19.1 for 4BBB events (85%), etc.
 
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A question that's probably been asked but I haven't seen it myself

If a club has a comp where the maximum handicap is say 18 and, say, a 25 handicapper enters, is the players handicap then reduced from the 18 he's required to reduce to and then further by the % reduction for the type of comp eg matchplay. So would he then play off say 16?
We use IG and can set the Playing Handicap to a max, which for our Honours Comps is 18, so a 26 handicapper if they wish to enter would play off 18
 

chrisd

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If a 19 handicapper entered I guess they would play off 17, so a 10% reduction would be the first consideration ie they wouldn't play off 18?
 
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