WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

rulefan

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I'm beginning to hate Texas Scrambles!

For yesterday's Texas Scramble Club V1 decided to round (up or down) all the team handicaps, rather than going to one decimal place. Although when the bookings were made they did go to one decimal place. This actually made a difference because one team finished 2nd with 53.6 (54) whilst the next team finished with 54.2 (54), and of course the team finishing 3rd were placed 2nd on countback!!!!

ClubV1 claim this is a fix, and Texas Scramble handicaps should be rounded!!

Is this news? Or a known change?

In response to my question to them I received:

This was part of one the last ClubV1 updates within the past month. Please contact the WHS/Golf Union for further guidance on Texas Scramble calculations.
The WHS Mixed Tee Handicap Calculator (v1.10) automatically rounds the team's playing handicaps.
 

mikejohnchapman

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Yes, under WHS, Playing Handicaps are rounded to the nearest whole number (Rule 6.2a).
You should be able to manually override the scorecard countback results if you wish to use something else, e.g. the decimal, as a tiebreaker?
Well Club Systems have issued an update note today confirming they have moved to whole numbers for team events which explains the change. Unfortunate timing as the booking sheet showed 1 decimal place.
 
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The prefilled card showed CH = 9 and PH = 8.

(the exact ungrounded CH would have been 9.0849....)
I've now seen the official results.

For the round on Tuesday where my card had been written out and showing CH:9 ; PH:8.....the official result shows my PH as being 11 !!!!! (On my card the original printed label said CH:12 ; PH:11 but these had been crossed out and replaced by the 9 (correct) and 8 (disputed) respectively.....when I originally entered the comp my index was such that my CH would have been 12 so I get where the printed label came from)....I actually NR'd the round after putting two balls OOB on on one hole....so I wonder if they simply didn't bother to correct things in the "system".

For the rounds on Wednesday and Thursday where I was responsible for filling in my own card details I made it clear on the card that my index was 8.7 and the official results show me with a PH of 9....which is what I always said it should be.

(all of these three rounds were played over the same course)

The sooner we get the home unions systems talking to each other the better in my opinion!!!!
 

Swango1980

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Well, now that I've joined another club ( a well established club one would say) I am now getting a taste of issues with implementing WHS, especially when there is confusion on what is required.

I handed in my first general play rounds. Pre-registered, entered score on howdidido after, and then submitted physical signed card in the relevant box. However, a few days later, it became clear that my score appeared twice on my record, and all my playing partners scores ended up on their record (despite them never having any intention to submit card for handicap). Turns out, someone at the club enters every score on every card when they collect the physical cards.

I've now been told by the club that it should be made clear on the card if the scores have already been entered, otherwise they will have to check each players individual record first to see if this is actually the case (a step they do not want to take). Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count. Therefore, that is why they enter every score they can from all the physical cards, and that if I do not want the scores to count, they should be scored out (ironically, even if every score did have to count, scoring any score out would then invalidate that requirement).

Concerning really. I've randomly looked at the record of about a dozen members, and most had duplicate rounds on their record where the same thing must have happened (some more than one pair of duplicate rounds). No idea how many scores have been entered for players who had never pre-registered. It also suggests that a player can easily manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards by effectively choosing what general play rounds to submit (they can even get that round to count twice if they enter it themselves, and then someone at club also enters it later).

It makes me wonder how well other clubs have been able to implement WHS since its launch. I've spent so much time over the last 2 or so years researching it and finding out more and more info, much of it on here. I fully expect people in this forum have also been able to get to grips with it, maybe the only issues being the tech and all the early bugs / issues. However, how many clubs out there have not had people that have had the time to fully get their heads around it? Or, perhaps new handicap secretaries who have not had the background research over the last couple of years? I fully expect there to be issues at "smaller" clubs, but it appears this can affect even the bigger clubs who have the advantage of having some full time staff.
 

wjemather

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Well, now that I've joined another club ( a well established club one would say) I am now getting a taste of issues with implementing WHS, especially when there is confusion on what is required.

I handed in my first general play rounds. Pre-registered, entered score on howdidido after, and then submitted physical signed card in the relevant box. However, a few days later, it became clear that my score appeared twice on my record, and all my playing partners scores ended up on their record (despite them never having any intention to submit card for handicap). Turns out, someone at the club enters every score on every card when they collect the physical cards.

I've now been told by the club that it should be made clear on the card if the scores have already been entered, otherwise they will have to check each players individual record first to see if this is actually the case (a step they do not want to take). Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count. Therefore, that is why they enter every score they can from all the physical cards, and that if I do not want the scores to count, they should be scored out (ironically, even if every score did have to count, scoring any score out would then invalidate that requirement).

Concerning really. I've randomly looked at the record of about a dozen members, and most had duplicate rounds on their record where the same thing must have happened (some more than one pair of duplicate rounds). No idea how many scores have been entered for players who had never pre-registered. It also suggests that a player can easily manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards by effectively choosing what general play rounds to submit (they can even get that round to count twice if they enter it themselves, and then someone at club also enters it later).

It makes me wonder how well other clubs have been able to implement WHS since its launch. I've spent so much time over the last 2 or so years researching it and finding out more and more info, much of it on here. I fully expect people in this forum have also been able to get to grips with it, maybe the only issues being the tech and all the early bugs / issues. However, how many clubs out there have not had people that have had the time to fully get their heads around it? Or, perhaps new handicap secretaries who have not had the background research over the last couple of years? I fully expect there to be issues at "smaller" clubs, but it appears this can affect even the bigger clubs who have the advantage of having some full time staff.
From what I hear (locally), it's the bigger members clubs, who rely on employed staff to administer competitions and handicapping rather than volunteer members, that have far more issues with their "handicap committee" not understanding or following the rules of handicapping. Many (if not most) do not even have a committee, just one staff member doing it all.

Of course, software that still doesn't function as required and even sends unacceptable scores (e.g. all zeros) through to WHS doesn't help.
 
Thread starter #1,346

Old Skier

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Not sure we’re the “technically “ every score should count. It’s quite clear that scores need to be pre registered by a way that the club deems acceptable.

Obviously getting members to indicate that cards have been entered on the system is useful.
 

rulefan

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Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count.
That is not so. The management of the WHS has been delegated to National Associations (eg England Golf) and Multi-National Associations (eg CONGU). Rule 1.3 (iv) and (v).
General Play scores must be pre-registered (Rule 2.1a (iii)) and are not acceptable if not.
 

Swango1980

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That is not so. The management of the WHS has been delegated to National Associations (eg England Golf) and Multi-National Associations (eg CONGU). Rule 1.3 (iv) and (v).
General Play scores must be pre-registered (Rule 2.1a (iii)) and are not acceptable if not.
Indeed, I am aware of this. Hence why it concerns me this point has been missed at some clubs.
 
Thread starter #1,350

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From EG:

Playing Conditions Calculations PCC – Tournament or International scores

This clarification is to support Handicap Advisors and Club Handicap Committees when recording any returned ‘tournament’, or international scores and entering them into the WHS portal directly. The score should preferably be entered hole by hole but may returned be as an adjusted gross.

As you may be aware, the USGA and R&A have a project group looking at the interoperability of WHS globally. Until this project group has completed its work, and all jurisdictions can ‘talk’ to one another, we will need some ‘work-arounds’ in place to allow scores to be added correctly to players' WHS records.

This PCC ‘work-around’ only applies to ‘tournament’ scores, or international scores, and is a solution for manually adding a calculated PCC value to a record where the score cannot be returned automatically through the WHS
platform. This is so the playing difficulty will be correctly reflected in the Handicap Index for the score returned.
Once the PCC has been calculated and published for a given date, the golfer may return their score with a PCC value to their home club for entering into their WHS Handicap record. The player should endeavour to find the PCC value, or provide the Tournament organiser details.

For these situations, the following instructions apply as a solution: Example 1 –

• For a score with a published PCC value of +2, the score is to be adjusted by reducing the gross score by two strokes: either as an adjusted gross or to two individual holes.
Example 2 –
• For a score with a published PCC value of -1, the score is to be adjusted by increasing the gross score by one stroke: either on one hole or to the adjusted gross.
*Please note – The IT team are working on a more appropriate solution to this and moving forward, looking to include a specific box where the exact PCC value can be recorded. Without the need to adjust any gross score values up or down.
Page 1 of 1 26 July 202
 

mikejohnchapman

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A Question on Post-COVID requirements.

The guidance from EG & CONGU is quite clear to a point (EG says you "may" return to pre-COVID regulations) but we have a situation which is causing confusion.

Our Club Captain has well intentionally sent out a note to the members stating that whilst the COVID restrictions / amendments have been rescinded it is acceptable for any player who is concerned about catching or passing on COVID may avoid touching equipment on the course or counter-signing a competition /GP scorecards.

I have no problems with not touching the flag, rakes, etc providing the player leaves any bunker in the state they would hope to find it in. I have a real problem with the lack of attestation on scorecards. Having had a full and frank exchange of views regarding just how much adding one signature to a card is a risk, we are now in a position where if a card only has one signature we have to accept it but it is in direct contravention of the CONGU rules. I had asked that we bring in a specific exception for anyone who registered that they were unwilling to sign a card but this was rejected.

Has anyone else come across this and put something in place to handle it?

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who is shielding or just COVID aware I think the blanket approach is just wrong but I don't know how to handle it without going to County and causing a major row.

Any help / advise appreciated.
 

rulefan

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A Question on Post-COVID requirements.

The guidance from EG & CONGU is quite clear to a point (EG says you "may" return to pre-COVID regulations) but we have a situation which is causing confusion.

Our Club Captain has well intentionally sent out a note to the members stating that whilst the COVID restrictions / amendments have been rescinded it is acceptable for any player who is concerned about catching or passing on COVID may avoid touching equipment on the course or counter-signing a competition /GP scorecards.

I have no problems with not touching the flag, rakes, etc providing the player leaves any bunker in the state they would hope to find it in. I have a real problem with the lack of attestation on scorecards. Having had a full and frank exchange of views regarding just how much adding one signature to a card is a risk, we are now in a position where if a card only has one signature we have to accept it but it is in direct contravention of the CONGU rules. I had asked that we bring in a specific exception for anyone who registered that they were unwilling to sign a card but this was rejected.

Has anyone else come across this and put something in place to handle it?

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who is shielding or just COVID aware I think the blanket approach is just wrong but I don't know how to handle it without going to County and causing a major row.

Any help / advise appreciated.
Perhaps the marker could submit a separate card recording the details including the player's gross with the markers signature.
 

mikejohnchapman

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Perhaps the marker could submit a separate card recording the details including the player's gross with the markers signature.
I think where we are is that the marker writes out the card for the player before the round adding their name, handicap details, etc. They then fill in the card with the scores and sign it before passing it back to the player for counter-signature. The card will contain the players score plus the markers. However, if the marker refuses to touch the card completed for him / her by their fellow competitor they won't sign it.

We will have 2 cards with 2 sets of scores per card but potentially one signature.
 
Thread starter #1,354

Old Skier

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A Question on Post-COVID requirements.

The guidance from EG & CONGU is quite clear to a point (EG says you "may" return to pre-COVID regulations) but we have a situation which is causing confusion.

Our Club Captain has well intentionally sent out a note to the members stating that whilst the COVID restrictions / amendments have been rescinded it is acceptable for any player who is concerned about catching or passing on COVID may avoid touching equipment on the course or counter-signing a competition /GP scorecards.

I have no problems with not touching the flag, rakes, etc providing the player leaves any bunker in the state they would hope to find it in. I have a real problem with the lack of attestation on scorecards. Having had a full and frank exchange of views regarding just how much adding one signature to a card is a risk, we are now in a position where if a card only has one signature we have to accept it but it is in direct contravention of the CONGU rules. I had asked that we bring in a specific exception for anyone who registered that they were unwilling to sign a card but this was rejected.

Has anyone else come across this and put something in place to handle it?

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who is shielding or just COVID aware I think the blanket approach is just wrong but I don't know how to handle it without going to County and causing a major row.

Any help / advise appreciated.
With the advent of apps I can’t see how there now can be any contravention of CONGU rules when it comes to cards being signed and in the future I can see cards, other than for information for the player, eventually being phased out.

The players card can always be verified against another card with his score being placed in player B-C columns or, if it doesn’t cause confusion, in the marker column.
 

wjemather

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With the advent of apps I can’t see how there now can be any contravention of CONGU rules when it comes to cards being signed and in the future I can see cards, other than for information for the player, eventually being phased out.

The players card can always be verified against another card with his score being placed in player B-C columns or, if it doesn’t cause confusion, in the marker column.
Most ISV apps do not meet the certification requirements of the Rules of Golf.
 

wjemather

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There’s always the EG App, HDID app also asked for a named marker and has a signature facility.
MyEG is only for casual/gp rounds; it is of no use for competitions.

Outside of testing/trials, HDID currently has a signature option for the player only, and the marker selection is purely decorative (i.e. there is no marker certification or input of marked scores).
 
Thread starter #1,358

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MyEG is only for casual/gp rounds; it is of no use for competitions.

Outside of testing/trials, HDID currently has a signature option for the player only, and the marker selection is purely decorative (i.e. there is no marker certification or input of marked scores).
EG app also has, like comp cards the ability to have an affect on a players HC. If clubs are willing to accept the EG app IMO the various proprietary apps should also be accepted. Whether we like it or not the use of proprietary apps will be the way forward.
 

wjemather

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EG app also has, like comp cards the ability to have an affect on a players HC. If clubs are willing to accept the EG app IMO the various proprietary apps should also be accepted. Whether we like it or not the use of proprietary apps will be the way forward.
Apps that do not meet the requirements of the Rules of Golf simply cannot be accepted (without additional actions to fill these gaps).
 
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