Whs exceptional score

Sparkyph3

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As a Handicap Secretary in training I'm interested to know if there ever would be a time when the Handicap Sec performs the ESR - it is my belief that the system does it automatically if needed. That said, at the Annual and 6-monthly Handicap Reviews Handicap Committees take a hard look at player's performance over time with the consideration of possibly cutting them, but is that really necessary if players are being cut properly by the system as we go along?
 
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Pedromac

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He may be mistaken by this, so it is worth clearing up. England Golf will have immediately told him what his new handicap index would be after entering his score (without the ESR). The following day, when PCC is known, the system may have automatically applied the ESR of an additional 2 shots, if his score was low enough. To him, it may appear that the handicap secretary did this because it occurred at a later point after the first reduction. However, it could simply have been the system doing this as per the WHS guidelines.
No the h/c sec phoned me the following day to tell me he had applied a second 2 stroke deduction
 

Swango1980

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No the h/c sec phoned me the following day to tell me he had applied a second 2 stroke deduction
Cheers. If that is the case, and as rulefan said, they shouldn't really be doing that. Not unless they have plenty of other evidence to support this. No idea why they would apply an ESR, when the system has already done so. I'd also be interested to know how this is shown on your scoring history? Your untouched index would be the average of your best 8 score differentials. With an ESR, if it is 2 shots, then there is a -2.0 adjustement on your last 20 score differentials (to get the -2 to index). In your case, I assume you have a -4.0 adjustment on your last 20 scores?
 

Colin L

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No the h/c sec phoned me the following day to tell me he had applied a second 2 stroke deduction
Perhaps he is unaware that the 2 stroke reduction made by the WHS system is in addition to the effect the low score has as the lowest of the 8 counting differentials. Any intervention like this should only be done after a review of the player's scores and performance in formats other than stroke play and be based on wide evidence that the player's index is higher than it should be. It should not be done on the basis of a single score.
 
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Canfordhacker

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Thanks for the info. Up here in tartan land, I'm glad to say that there should be no confusion: the SG app does not show a recalculated index until the following day.
To be fair it has a massive asterisk next to it drawing attention to the fact that it is dependent on the overnight (which includes PCC) run.
 
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Cheers. If that is the case, and as rulefan said, they shouldn't really be doing that. Not unless they have plenty of other evidence to support this. No idea why they would apply an ESR, when the system has already done so. I'd also be interested to know how this is shown on your scoring history? Your untouched index would be the average of your best 8 score differentials. With an ESR, if it is 2 shots, then there is a -2.0 adjustement on your last 20 score differentials (to get the -2 to index). In your case, I assume you have a -4.0 adjustment on your last 20 scores?
He hasn't had a 6 shot reduction, only 4, approx the 2 for this one score, then the extra -2 applied by the club.

What I don't follow is how the system hasn't done this automatically when he's shot 11 under, that should be automatic. I rather think the call was a courtesy call, unless the England Golf system doesn't do it automatically, but sends the club the suggestion to cut? In Scotland it's done automatically
 

Colin L

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It's neither, it's perfectly acceptable for a H'Cap Sec to make adjustments
It's acceptable to make adjustments following a review which demonstrates a pattern of performance which is not reflected in the handicap index. It isn't acceptable for a Handicap Secretary to make an adjustment by imposing a 2 stroke reduction on the basis of one score especially when the system already does so.
 
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I hope you meant Committee rather than Secretary. However, it is still not acceptable unless the Committee followed the procedure in 7.1a carefully
No I meant the handicap sec, it's not the keys to the nuclear codes, you don't all need to be in the room to press the button.
 

Swango1980

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He hasn't had a 6 shot reduction, only 4, approx the 2 for this one score, then the extra -2 applied by the club.

What I don't follow is how the system hasn't done this automatically when he's shot 11 under, that should be automatic. I rather think the call was a courtesy call, unless the England Golf system doesn't do it automatically, but sends the club the suggestion to cut? In Scotland it's done automatically
Again, having read his comment again, it could well be confused messaging. He clarified:

"No the h/c sec phoned me the following day to tell me he had applied a second 2 stroke deduction"

I read that as though the handicap secretary stated he applied a 2nd 2 shot reduction over and above the 2 shot ESR automatically applied by the system. That would be wrong based on this one score.

However, interpreting it differently, the handicap sec may have simply meant a 2nd reduction, of 2 shots, over and above the natural reduction caused by the impact of his score on his 8 score average. This would be correct, as it is simply the required ESR if he shot enough under CR. This is how you interpret it, and I am leaning towards this as well given the numbers. It is just confusing that the handicap sec said HE applied the 2 shot reduction, as the England Golf WHS does it automatically. There is no need for the handicap sec to get involved at all, except to explain to a golfer what has happened if they don't understand the sudden jump.
 
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Again, having read his comment again, it could well be confused messaging. He clarified:

"No the h/c sec phoned me the following day to tell me he had applied a second 2 stroke deduction"

I read that as though the handicap secretary stated he applied a 2nd 2 shot reduction over and above the 2 shot ESR automatically applied by the system. That would be wrong based on this one score.

However, interpreting it differently, the handicap sec may have simply meant a 2nd reduction, of 2 shots, over and above the natural reduction caused by the impact of his score on his 8 score average. This would be correct, as it is simply the required ESR if he shot enough under CR. This is how you interpret it, and I am leaning towards this as well given the numbers. It is just confusing that the handicap sec said HE applied the 2 shot reduction, as the England Golf WHS does it automatically. There is no need for the handicap sec to get involved at all, except to explain to a golfer what has happened if they don't understand the sudden jump.
Yeah I think that's just the guy's phrasing tbh. From the OP, he's been cut four shots in total (more or less), so 2 of those have to be the ESR. If anything fair play to the H-Sec for bothering to phone, there will have been an automatic email go out already letting him know (again if it works like the Scottish system), so no real need.
 
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As a Handicap Secretary in training I'm interested to know if there ever would be a time when the Handicap Sec performs the ESR - it is my belief that the system does it automatically if needed. That said, at the Annual and 6-monthly Handicap Reviews Handicap Committees take a hard look at player's performance over time with the consideration of possibly cutting them, but is that really necessary if players are being cut properly by the system as we go along?
Yes. There are set triggers in the system, 7 & 10 shots being that point, say you have a guy been practicing all winter, comes back a new guy in April, shoots four consecutive 6 under rounds, are you going to do nothing?
 

wjemather

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No I meant the handicap sec, it's not the keys to the nuclear codes, you don't all need to be in the room to press the button.
You are simply wrong in claiming that a manual (out of process) adjustment can and should be made on the basis of a single score.

Moreover, as others have said, manual adjustments are arrived at after review by the committee, not as a result of an arbitrary knee-jerk decision by an individual.
 
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You are simply wrong in claiming that a manual (out of process) adjustment can and should be made on the basis of a single score.

Moreover, as others have said, manual adjustments are arrived at after review by the committee, not as a result of an arbitrary knee-jerk decision by an individual.
1. Which hasn't happened here, it's pretty clear that the OP has simply misunderstood what's happened
2. "you don't all need to be in the room to press the button"
 

IanMcC

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1. Which hasn't happened here, it's pretty clear that the OP has simply misunderstood what's happened
2. "you don't all need to be in the room to press the button"
1. I think you are doing Pedromac a disservice with this statement. He reported back to us in post #22, after speaking with his M&H Secretary. I'm sure he fully understands. The M&H person told him that he made a manual adjustment, which I am pretty sure was based on this one round, which makes it at the very least against the guidance.
2. You don't have to all be in the room, but all of the committee should have a say if an adjustment is to take place. That's why a committee is at least 3 people. Communication is easy these days.
 
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1. I think you are doing Pedromac a disservice with this statement. He reported back to us in post #22, after speaking with his M&H Secretary. I'm sure he fully understands. The M&H person told him that he made a manual adjustment, which I am pretty sure was based on this one round, which makes it at the very least against the guidance.
2. You don't have to all be in the room, but all of the committee should have a say if an adjustment is to take place. That's why a committee is at least 3 people. Communication is easy these days.
Ian, it's not possible that a manual adjustment has been made, others have confirmed that EG like SG does this automatically in the back end, he's had to have had an automatic reduction due to how low that score was, -2 for sure. He's down -4 in total, the other -2ish will be the normal adjustment that'll come with such a low addition to his record. I think it's simply the wording of the h-sec that's caused confusion, either way it seems right.

Re-2: Yes, that's what I said.
 

wjemather

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Ian, it's not possible that a manual adjustment has been made, others have confirmed that EG like SG does this automatically in the back end, he's had to have had an automatic reduction due to how low that score was, -2 for sure. He's down -4 in total, the other -2ish will be the normal adjustment that'll come with such a low addition to his record. I think it's simply the wording of the h-sec that's caused confusion, either way it seems right.
This is also not true. If we take my analysis from #7 and instead of the highest counting SD being replaced, we say the lowest counting SD was the 20th; then it's entirely possible that this very exceptional score only resulted in a relatively small reduction in index (say 0.5) in addition to the automatic 2 stroke exceptional scoring reduction. An additional 2 stroke reduction would then be needed to reach the 4.5 reduction experienced by the OP.
 
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This is also not true. If we take my analysis from #7 and instead of the highest counting SD being replaced, we say the lowest counting SD was the 20th; then it's entirely possible that this very exceptional score only resulted in a relatively small reduction in index (say 0.5) in addition to the automatic 2 stroke exceptional scoring reduction. An additional 2 stroke reduction would then be needed to reach the 4.5 reduction experienced by the OP.
I think OP needs to post a screenshot of handicap record, including the score that's dropped off. Lack of info is just leading to all sorts of guesses.
 
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