Where is my ball likely to be?

[backwoodsman]

Reading LIG's recent thread has got me wondering about the following scenario ...

A player hits his tee shot down a tree lined fairway, facing directly into the sun. No-one is sure where it's gone. Ball could have been heading left or right and you hear a clatter on a tree. The bounce of the tree means it could have gone anywhere. Player plays a provisonal straight down the middle, nice & low and everyone sees where it goes.

Everyone goes to look for original but after less than 5 minutes search, player plays the provisional . Original then found immediately after - to comments along lines of "well, l wouldn't have expected to find it there?"

Given that no one had any idea where the original was heading, how do you decide if the provisional had been played from near the hole than where "the original ball is likely to be" - as that is not necessarily the same as where its actually found? (because of decision 27-2b/4).

In this case, do you just take the found position as the reference point?

 

[duncan mackie]

No - the found position is irrelevant.

You make your best estimate, or in this case guess.

In the absence of any comment in this case there has been a search, and he has then played the provisional from a position in front of that - it's the in play and the original lost.

If he had stated that he felt that the original ball would be further up than where his provisional was and he was playing it now to save time, I would have been happy that the original ball when found within 5 mins was still in play.

Even better in such a situation is not to play the provisional until you have exhausted your 5 mins and options.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Very difficult to justify playing the provisional in these circumstances unless you hit it a very short distance. If you had a good idea where th original went then fair enough but not in this scenario.

 

[backwoodsman]

Ta both.

By way of explanation, because l was interested in "the principle", I deliberately didn’t ponder anything about the relative quality of strike for either ball nor about the magnitude of separation between the theoretical provisional and "found" original, nor which was the further forward.

The point about not playing the provisional until the full 5 mins is up makes perfect sense. (Although I was envisioning the player playing the provisional having given up hope of finding the first rather than saving time).

Should the situation actually arise, l think I'd go along with telling the player to search the full 5, saying something along lines of ... if you play it now, l think we'll have to regard it as in play, as we will have difficulty justifying a lucky find of the original as being in play - no matter where it's found.

 

[bladeplayer]

Why not just say as we havent found it on way up il still hit this as a provo and we can use the remainder of the 5 min searching from here twords the hole
once u search forward there is no chance of playing the provo from in front of it and if u exhaust the 5 min then u have ur ball in play if u find it in the 5 ur elected

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Why not just say as we havent found it on way up il still hit this as a provo and we can use the remainder of the 5 min searching from here twords the hole
once u search forward there is no chance of playing the provo from in front of it and if u exhaust the 5 min then u have ur ball in play if u find it in the 5 ur elected

Good point - I see a lot of players hit their provisional a second time without saying it's a provisional ball.

 

[rulie]

Good point - I see a lot of players hit their provisional a second time without saying it's a provisional ball.

Don't understand this comment? You only need to say provisional once, just before you put the second ball into play.

 

[backwoodsman]

Why not just say as we havent found it on way up il still hit this as a provo and we can use the remainder of the 5 min searching from here twords the hole
once u search forward there is no chance of playing the provo from in front of it and if u exhaust the 5 min then u have ur ball in play if u find it in the 5 ur elected

Don't see how this would work. The point of my query was that after hitting the provisional the first time and it was lying on the fairway, you did not know whether it was lying nearer, or further from, the hole than "where the original was likely to be". (As oposed to where the original was if it perchance got found) Therefore you did not know whether you could play it again without it automatically becoming the ball in play.

 

[bladeplayer]

Don't see how this would work. The point of my query was that after hitting the provisional the first time and it was lying on the fairway, you did not know whether it was lying nearer, or further from, the hole than "where the original was likely to be". (As oposed to where the original was if it perchance got found) Therefore you did not know whether you could play it again without it automatically becoming the ball in play.

As i say if ya have looked for it on way up and havent found its safe to say its either lost or further ahead , unless u plan to walk back and search again u announce this is still bn played as a provisional until the 5 min has expired or i find my original between here and the hole (ie in front of the provo so its ok)

 

[bladeplayer]

Don't understand this comment? You only need to say provisional once, just before you put the second ball into play.

I think its safer to save all confusion to announce its still as a provisional , some ppl are not going to have a good enough understanding of the rules to know u can do this ..

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Don't see how this would work. The point of my query was that after hitting the provisional the first time and it was lying on the fairway, you did not know whether it was lying nearer, or further from, the hole than "where the original was likely to be". (As oposed to where the original was if it perchance got found) Therefore you did not know whether you could play it again without it automatically becoming the ball in play.

Basically - if you decide to play your provisional before you have located your original (if indeed you do) you take your chance.

If you then find your original at a point past where you played your 2nd with the provisional from, then the provisional is dead. Your original is the ball in play - regardless of it's circumstances.

If you find your original ball closer to the tee than where you played your provisional from, then your provisional is the ball in play.

 

[atticusfinch]

Does the actual location of the original trump the player's estimate of its "likely" location?

 

[Colin L]

... If you then find your original at a point past where you played your 2nd with the provisional from, then the provisional is dead. Your original is the ball in play - regardless of it's circumstances.

If you find your original ball closer to the tee than where you played your provisional from, then your provisional is the ball in play.

Atticus rightly questions this and you might look back to Duncan's explanation in post #2 that where the original ball is found is irrelevant. There are circumstances in which the ball may end up well away from where you thought it would be - deflected forwards or back by a tree or a boulder for example, If you are searching in one area and the original is found in another, the place where it was "likely be" has to be where you were searching. If it were't, why were you searching there?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Atticus rightly questions this and you might look back to Duncan's explanation in post #2 that where the original ball is found is irrelevant. There are circumstances in which the ball may end up well away from where you thought it would be - deflected forwards or back by a tree or a boulder for example, If you are searching in one area and the original is found in another, the place where it was "likely be" has to be where you were searching. If it were't, why were you searching there?

Surely the positions of the original and the provisional after the tee shots are simply matters of fact. That you might not know where the original is; might be looking for it in the wrong place; might make an incorrect assumption about where it might be - these are all fine and well - but do not change the facts about the actual positions of the two balls.

Is @dm saying that if I think - or simply say that I think - that my original is further from the tee than it actually is - and indeed further from the tee than my provisional - that if I play the provisional then find my original closer to the tee than my provisional (now played) then the fact that I have played my provisional doesn't matter - I have to play the original.

Thinking this through I guess that must be the case.

If I knew my original was in the deep doggie and knew where it was - I could play a provisional. If I saw it in good position past my original I could then make out that I didn't know where my original was; play my provisional claiming I thought my original was further on - and then - oh look - I've found my original. It's in the deep doggie - but I've already played my provisional from a position that was where my original is - well - my provisional must be my ball in play. Phew - that was fortunate!

 

[pogle]

Surely the positions of the original and the provisional after the tee shots are simply matters of fact. That you might not know where the original is; might be looking for it in the wrong place; might make an incorrect assumption about where it might be - these are all fine and well - but do not change the facts about the actual positions of the two balls.

Is @dm saying that if I think - or simply say that I think - that my original is further from the tee than it actually is - and indeed further from the tee than my provisional - that if I play the provisional then find my original closer to the tee than my provisional (now played) then the fact that I have played my provisional doesn't matter - I have to play the original.

Thinking this through I guess that must be the case.

If I knew my original was in the deep doggie and knew where it was - I could play a provisional. If I saw it in good position past my original I could then make out that I didn't know where my original was; play my provisional claiming I thought my original was further on - and then - oh look - I've found my original. It's in the deep doggie - but I've already played my provisional from a position that was where my original is - well - my provisional must be my ball in play. Phew - that was fortunate!

You could do what you say, but you'd have to ask yourself whether you're playing honestly and with integrity.

The point Duncan and Colin are trying to make is that the rule dealing with when a provisional ball becomes the ball in play refer to playing the provisional ball closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be, not where it actually is.

Decision 27-2/b4 tries to make this clear


Q.

A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or in a road defined as out of bounds, played a provisional ball. He searched for his original ball but did not find it. He went forward and played his provisional ball. Then he went farther forward and found his original ball in bounds. The original ball must have bounced down the road and then come back into bounds, because it was found much farther from the tee than anticipated. Was the original ball still the ball in play?
A.

No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).

The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant.

 

[rulefan]

The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost.

What else is there to say?