When is a bunker not a bunker?

[cleanstrike]

Reading the 'bunkerless golf courses' thread elsewhere on here make me think and prompted me to ask this ...

Around my local course there are a number of large hollows around the greens that are clearly intended to be bunkers ... but there's no sand in them. Many are grassed over and, at this time of year, full of leaves. Am I still supposed to consider them as hazards and follow the rules accordingly or should I just treat them as ordinary parts of the course.

When is a bunker not a bunker?

 

[Colin L]

A Bunker is a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like. [see Definition of a bunker.

Have any of these hollows been "prepared"? Has turf or soil been removed and replaced with sand or "the like"?

A grassed over hollow is certainly not a bunker.

Perhaps you could describe what it is about these hollows which make you say they are clearly intended to be bunkers?

 

[stevie_r]

Perhaps they were bunkers once but aren't any more, we have a couple

 

[cleanstrike]

A Bunker is a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like. [see Definition of a bunker.

Have any of these hollows been "prepared"? Has turf or soil been removed and replaced with sand or "the like"?

A grassed over hollow is certainly not a bunker.

Perhaps you could describe what it is about these hollows which make you say they are clearly intended to be bunkers?

When you look at the aerial pictures of the course on Google Earth (bearing in mind those pictures are probably several years old) you can see what looks to be sand in some of these hollows but it's not there now.

 

[BTatHome]

When you look at the aerial pictures of the course on Google Earth (bearing in mind those pictures are probably several years old) you can see what looks to be sand in some of these hollows but it's not there now.

So at the moment, it's not prepared, the soil/turf has not been removed,and there is no sand in them.

Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

 

[cleanstrike]

So at the moment, it's not prepared, the soil/turf has not been removed,and there is no sand in them.

Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

What, precisely, is conclusive? I was hoping that someone could offer a definitive answer not something that remains open to interpretation.

 

[Old Skier]

What, precisely, is conclusive? I was hoping that someone could offer a definitive answer not something that remains open to interpretation.

Only the committee of the club could give the definitive answer, not an unknown thread member who may never have been near the course.

 

[Old Skier]

cs, I go down to Plymouth and play a few of the courses, which one are you on about.

 

[BTatHome]

What, precisely, is conclusive? I was hoping that someone could offer a definitive answer not something that remains open to interpretation.

Well probably the fact it bears no resemblance to the definition of a bunker?

 

[cleanstrike]

Only the committee of the club could give the definitive answer, not an unknown thread member who may never have been near the course.

Okay, thanks! I'll ask the course pro next time I'm there or I'll just carry on playing those areas as if they're ordinary parts of the course. After all, no-one's going to stick me against a wall and shoot me if I'm wrong, are they?

 

[cleanstrike]

cs, I go down to Plymouth and play a few of the courses, which one are you on about.

Sparkwell

 

[Colin L]

When you look at the aerial pictures of the course on Google Earth (bearing in mind those pictures are probably several years old) you can see what looks to be sand in some of these hollows but it's not there now.

We would need to know what course it is to look up Google Earth.

From the sound of it, these are not bunkers, but as is said above none of us here could give you a more definite answer, I'm afraid. A photo would be really helpful.

 

[rosecott]

Reading the 'bunkerless golf courses' thread elsewhere on here make me think and prompted me to ask this ...

Around my local course there are a number of large hollows around the greens that are clearly intended to be bunkers ... but there's no sand in them. Many are grassed over and, at this time of year, full of leaves. Am I still supposed to consider them as hazards and follow the rules accordingly or should I just treat them as ordinary parts of the course.

When is a bunker not a bunker?

We have many such grassy hollows on our course. Some used to be bunkers and were converted to grassy hollows and some were constructed from scratch. This was a deliberate policy as the ex-bunkers were difficult to maintain due to being rather exposed to our normal windy conditions. We still have bunkers but not as many as we used to have.

 

[BTatHome]

Can't see how google earth is going to make any difference, as it will shows pics from many many years ago, and even then we have no idea what part of the course is being discussed.

 

[cleanstrike]

Can't see how google earth is going to make any difference, as it will shows pics from many many years ago, and even then we have no idea what part of the course is being discussed.

It doesn't really matter which course is being discussed or even which part of a course, does it. It was only a general query in the first place. As for Google Earth, it is obvious (to me, at least) that if the aerial view shows sand in a hollow, then it, at some time in the past, used to be a bunker and you might expect to play them as bunkers. Now there's no sand in them, they're ex-bunkers and I just wanted to know if I should still treat them as bunkers or not.

I'm sorry you don't understand this basic concept but perhaps logic is just not your forte.

 

[duncan mackie]

.......... Now there's no sand in them, they're ex-bunkers and I just wanted to know if I should still treat them as bunkers or not.

I'm sorry you don't understand this basic concept but perhaps logic is just not your forte.

given that even if they were bunkers, or even that parts of what were bunkers are still bunkers, if you ball is lying on grass it's not in a bunker by definition - so it's a complete non issue.

if the ball is lying in a prepared sandy area then it's in a bunker - but you state such a situation isn't the case

I hope this is sufficiently logical for you

 

[Colin L]

I'm sorry you don't understand this basic concept but perhaps logic is just not your forte.

Steady on. No-one is likely to commit a definitive view on something that hasn't been seen and in fact different possibilities show up on the satellite view:

1. What look like ex-bunkers, now grassed over. They should be played as through the green not as a hazard.
2 Some bunker shaped bits at the SE corner of the course several of which show up a light grey, one if which is more of a sandy colour. These look as if they are bunkers i.e. prepared, dug out and filled with sand or something. If so these are hazards.

 

[rulefan]

The four ar bottom right would appear to be greenside bunkers (with a couple of winter greens). As are the two just above.

The splodge bottom centreish looks like an abandoned bunker (ie not a bunker). As does the one to the left on the other side of the fairway.

I couldn't spot any others apart from four greenside bunkers on the far left

 

[cleanstrike]

Steady on. No-one is likely to commit a definitive view on something that hasn't been seen and in fact different possibilities show up on the satellite view:

1. What look like ex-bunkers, now grassed over. They should be played as through the green not as a hazard.
2 Some bunker shaped bits at the SE corner of the course several of which show up a light grey, one if which is more of a sandy colour. These look as if they are bunkers i.e. prepared, dug out and filled with sand or something. If so these are hazards.

Now that, my friend, is precisely the sort of sensible answer I was hoping for so thanks for taking the time to reply. BTatHome's responses, on the other hand, smacked of almost sneering at my lack of knowledge and I don't appreciate that. When I want sarcasm, I'll ask for it.

 

[Colin L]

Don't overlook Duncan's very clear point - if your ball is on grass it cannot be in a bunker.

I think the old bunkers that are clearly no longer bunkers include these ones at the north end of the course