What era produced the best players?

[njrose51]

With the sad passing of Arnold Palmer and with Rory’s Fed Excup win, I began to wonder what makes a great player?

Arnold, Jack, Lee, Seve etc, did they have all the coacheswhether for golf, diet, lifestyle etc? Did they have modern, forgiving equipment?But they still won tournaments with style, raw skill, daring and a smile ontheir face.

Was Faldo the first player that began the change in terms ofthe importance of coaches?

Look at today’s players though - Rory, Speith, Woods, Day etc andthe vast teams they have around them. Are they actually better players?

I know it’s a different game nowadays, whether technology,pressure or even the condition of the courses, but I do wonder what era producedthe best players?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Due to variables; course conditioning, clubs, balls etc; it is impossible to compare players of different eras.

All that any player can strive to be is the best of his own time.

Tom Morris Sr, & Jr, Vardon, Hagen, Jones, Nelson, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson, Norman, Faldo and Woods.

Some stand out more than others but ultimately we have to realise that rarely did any play against the others when they were at equal stages of their careers.

As for "a smile on their face" that's something that you rarely saw with either Hogan or Faldo or even Jack in his early days.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

How can we judge Harry Vardon. J.H. Taylor and James Braid against Nicklaus, Palmer and Player - never mind against any three contemporaneous players from the last 20yrs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

How can we judge Harry Vardon. J.H. Taylor and James Braid against Nicklaus, Palmer and Player - never mind against any three contemporaneous players from the last 20yrs.

For myself I'd put the original triumverate as the greatest golfers as they were inventing the modern game - and had to be incredibly inventive in the shots they played due to the conditions of the courses (esp hazards); limited relief and such as stymies.

 

[njrose51]

I know that the original question is probably too hard to answer - a little bit like the old F1 drivers against todays current crop.

But I can remember Faldo, Seve, etc smashing their drives, shaping shots against the wind, having a great deal of physical skill in their shot making game.

So if you could transport Rory etc back to the days of Arnold, Jack would they be as successful? And therefore, would Arnold, Jack, Seve etc be better players if they were playing in todays modern era of forgiving clubs, distance balls, consultants and trainers etc?

 

[Kellfire]

Given the professionalism, the coaches, the technology, the amount they play and so on, undoubtedly today's golfers are the better players. That's not really open for discussion in my opinion.

The question of "If all else was equal who would be better?" is unanswerable and we'd be here all day!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Until the Arnold Palmer effect took hold it wasn't really possible for Tour pro's to make serious money unless they were regular winners, outside the top 10 and your prize-money didn't cover your costs for the week.

This must surely have had an effect upon the level and nature of competition compared with today when it is possible to make a decent living out of a series of top 20's.

 

[Tongo]

Until the Arnold Palmer effect took hold it wasn't really possible for Tour pro's to make serious money unless they were regular winners, outside the top 10 and your prize-money didn't cover your costs for the week.

This must surely have had an effect upon the level and nature of competition compared with today when it is possible to make a decent living out of a series of top 20's.

Very true. Its a similar case in darts with players in the PDC and the BDO organisations. Players from the BDO regularly move to the PDC and seem to improve. Reality dictates that greater competition and being able to play professionally rather than semi-professionally undoubtedly help a player's cause rather than it being improvement in the most literal sense.

njrose's point about Seve and Faldo is also an interesting one. As time has progressed equipment has become better so that players perhaps don't need / possess the skills of their forebears. Look at how there's moans and groans on the PGA Tour when the wind gets above 10mph.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Given the professionalism, the coaches, the technology, the amount they play and so on, undoubtedly today's golfers are the better players. That's not really open for discussion in my opinion.

The question of "If all else was equal who would be better?" is unanswerable and we'd be here all day!

This is why I'd put the original triumverate up tops as golfers. They didn't have the equipment players had from the 40s onwards to help with the shots - their kit was very basic and the courses could be very rough and ready and so they development quite unusual shots and were inventing the modern game. If you can have a read of Vardon's 1914 book - some of the shots and the thinking he employed back then are quite alien to golf as we know it - and even alien to the way Palmer, Nicklaus and Player played it.

 

[Kellfire]

This is why I'd put the original triumverate up tops as golfers. They didn't have the equipment players had from the 40s onwards to help with the shots - their kit was very basic and the courses could be very rough and ready and so they development quite unusual shots and were inventing the modern game. If you can have a read of Vardon's 1914 book - some of the shots and the thinking he employed back then are quite alien to golf as we know it - and even alien to the way Palmer, Nicklaus and Player played it.

Today's golfer would adapt just as they did though. It almost stinks of elitism when people want to denigrate the modern day player because they have certain advantages. There's no way to know so I'll consider each golfer against his peers and that'll do me.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Impossible to compare. I grew up in a wonderful era of Seve, Faldo, Langer et al in their prime and Seve in particular was my inspiration as a kid. It's hard to know how the modern players would fare with persimmon woods and balata balls and similarly how the players from previous generations would have done with all the assistance in modern technology

 

[njrose51]

Impossible to compare. I grew up in a wonderful era of Seve, Faldo, Langer et al in their prime and Seve in particular was my inspiration as a kid. It's hard to know how the modern players would fare with persimmon woods and balata balls and similarly how the players from previous generations would have done with all the assistance in modern technology

I think this is a really interesting observation. Would we automatically assume that a Faldo, Palmer, Jack would be a better player with all the modern equipment? Perhaps their skill is in the fact that they didn't have this equipment, life coaches etc and they forged their game on that basis. Give them a M1 with all the adjustability, what would that do to their game. Interesting.

 

[Hacker Khan]

As with all sports, the current stars of that sport will play the game to a higher level than those in the past. It's called progress.

 

[MadAdey]

I honestly think that Jack, Arnie, Seve, Player etc would kick the modern players asses. What is the difference in the game between now and in the 60's/ 70's.......................

Big headed drivers that are almost impossible to miss-hit for a tour pro and thanks to that forgiveness they are always hitting a pretty consistent distance. The older players has tiny little wooden headed drivers that had no forgiveness, yet they still managed to hit fairways and get it out there a good distance.

Tiny little blades, compared to modern player type cavity irons and even blades are more forgiving than they were.

Old school balls, not these fancy multi piece balls that are hot off the face yet soft and spinny on the greens.

Personal trainers, Psychologists, Hypno-therapists, health advisers, dietary consultants etc etc are all things that the old school players never had.

On top of all that when you look at the courses they played they were never in the immaculate condition you see now.

On top off all that they had going against them compared to the modern player, they could still play some amazing shots and get round with amazing skill.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Today's golfer would adapt just as they did though. It almost stinks of elitism when people want to denigrate the modern day player because they have certain advantages. There's no way to know so I'll consider each golfer against his peers and that'll do me.

But we are not doing 'other players adapting to the times and equipment'. My feeling is that today's players play in a much more controlled environment with consistent equipment - and so uncertainty around their golf is relatively much reduced compared with when - when things were a lot more uncertain and out of the players control, and so they had to be incredibly inventive and resourceful.

I'm not denigrating today's players in any way - I'm just thinking of the challenges each era of golfers have had to face. That's why I'd go for Vardon, Braid and Taylor as the greatest golfers.

 

[MadAdey]

I think this is a really interesting observation. Would we automatically assume that a Faldo, Palmer, Jack would be a better player with all the modern equipment? Perhaps their skill is in the fact that they didn't have this equipment, life coaches etc and they forged their game on that basis. Give them a M1 with all the adjustability, what would that do to their game. Interesting.

Improve it beyond belief. They didn't have all this flight scope technology to use to customize clubs. The vast amount of shafts available to tour pros mean that they can find a shaft profile that suits them perfectly. Older players just had to choose from regular, stiff or X-stiff and how to tip it to get a different profile.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I think if you break down the skill sets I would agree with [our] Hogan.

The rules in those days were very basic and the courses quite rough.
My grandfather was a good player in the early 1900. Local legend has it that his putting and cleek play around the green were outstanding. He could cut check [spin] a putt around a stymie or use a niblick to chip over.
Ben Sayers Jnr was one of his playing group. Sayers once won a bet with a visiting American. The American asked what he normally went round North Berwick in and he said 'fours' [ie 72] The guy then bet him that he could not play his round in all fours. He did and he won the bet.
Both my grandfather and Sayers were of a very small stature, 5'3'' and pretty skinny. The courses were much shorter and skill rather than length was the premium.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I wouldn't say any era is better, just certain players are better.

Hagan, Sarazen, Snead, Hogan, Nelson, Palmer, Nicklaus, Player, Watson, Seve, Faldo, Norman, Woods, et al - put any of them in any other era, as the equivalent fitness, equipment, courses, rules etc they would be the standout players.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Perhaps the thread should be titled 'What era produced the most skillful players?. Bearing in mind I am not thinking of whether today's players could be as skillful - just are they as skillful - or indeed do they need to be as skillful in the variety of shots they have to conjure up and then execute. As DfT reflects on his grandfather.

 

[351DRIVER]

Is there really any need to give thought to how good would Harry Vardon be versus Rory?

Which era? No idea, it affects nothing and no one can answer it