Water Hazard/provisional clarification

[Beezerk]

Had a bit of an incident on the par 3 18th at the new Ramside course yesterday, my self confessed lack of rules knowledge cost me a few shots I think so I need to brush up in this area.
Had a great day but I managed to make a mess of my final tee shot into a water hazard, I say into a water hazard, it bounced down a slope into the hazard but I couldn't see exactly where it landed.
I played a provisional which went straight over the flag and stopped dead 10 ft past the pin. This is where I became unstuck and I didn't know which was my best option.
The other lads in the group were joking on a bit about finding my first ball but I didn't really have any intention of looking for it as my provisional was at least 1 point for me. Walking past the water hazard one of the group shouted out he'd found my ball and stated because I'd not declared it lost I had to play it. The ball was unplayable (right at the bottom of the bank almost in the water) so I had to drop out of the hazard, I didn't have a line in to the green and ended up blobbing the hole. Kind of left a bad taste in my mouth as it had been great crack throughout the round.
So were they correct in making me play the ball in the hazard? Looking at rule 28 Ball Unplayable I have 3 options, one of which is to play a ball from spot the last shot was made under and under rule 26-1 ball found in a water hazard also gives me the same option.

Confused.com

 

[BTatHome]

Wow, an awful lot of confused rules there. I'll leave the details to others, but you can't play a provisional for a ball in a hazard. You don't have a choice of balls to use (see first part). If your ball went in the hazard then that's what your playing. You don't declare a ball list either. Finally not sure why you looked at unplayable.

Probably not too helpful, but certainly worth looking at the rules

 

[Maninblack4612]

Because your ball was in the water hazard the provisional ball you played could not be used. A provisional can only be used in place of a ball which is lost. Rule 28 is irrelevant since they ball is in a hazard, you must proceed using one of the three options given in rule 26.

If nobody had searched for the ball you could have played the provisional under the assumption that it was not "virtually certain" that the ball was in the hazard or you could have put another ball in play without calling it a provisional, at which point it becomes the ball in play. You obviously took a provisional because (a) you weren't sure the first was in the hazard and (b) you weren't sure you would find it. In actual fact, what you did was correct & one of the only three options you had.

 

[Ethan]

Had a bit of an incident on the par 3 18th at the new Ramside course yesterday, my self confessed lack of rules knowledge cost me a few shots I think so I need to brush up in this area.
Had a great day but I managed to make a mess of my final tee shot into a water hazard, I say into a water hazard, it bounced down a slope into the hazard but I couldn't see exactly where it landed.
I played a provisional which went straight over the flag and stopped dead 10 ft past the pin. This is where I became unstuck and I didn't know which was my best option.
The other lads in the group were joking on a bit about finding my first ball but I didn't really have any intention of looking for it as my provisional was at least 1 point for me. Walking past the water hazard one of the group shouted out he'd found my ball and stated because I'd not declared it lost I had to play it. The ball was unplayable (right at the bottom of the bank almost in the water) so I had to drop out of the hazard, I didn't have a line in to the green and ended up blobbing the hole. Kind of left a bad taste in my mouth as it had been great crack throughout the round.
So were they correct in making me play the ball in the hazard? Looking at rule 28 Ball Unplayable I have 3 options, one of which is to play a ball from spot the last shot was made under and under rule 26-1 ball found in a water hazard also gives me the same option.

Confused.com

They were correct. Once your ball was found within 5 mins anywhere other than OOB, it was in play and the provo was cancelled.

The guy who referred to declaring it lost was talking nonsense, you can't declare it lost.

Your ball was not unplayable (in the definition of the rules), it was in a hazard, so you have a choice as to how to proceed, which includes replaying the shot that got you there, dropping it out (precise locations depending on type of hazard) or playing it from within the hazard. Sometimes the drop options are OK, sometimes they are not very attractive. That is the way it goes.

 

[Beezerk]

Thanks for the replies, I guess my confusion is one of the options of being in the hazard is to replay the shot which got me there, right? Is this not the point of playing a provisional as I was sure the ball was in the hazard in the first place?
Btw by unplayable I meant I couldn't hit it as it lies as I'd have been standing in the pond

 

[Ethan]

Thanks for the replies, I guess my confusion is one of the options of being in the hazard is to replay the shot which got me there, right? Is this not the point of playing a provisional as I was sure the ball was in the hazard in the first place?
Btw by unplayable I meant I couldn't hit it as it lies as I'd have been standing in the pond

The provo is only for a possibly lost/OOB ball. Once you find the ball in a hazard, you can't say 'Well, handily enough I already played another shot from the same place'. One reason may be that you would be that the nature of the choice is influenced strongly by what you did with the provo. Sitting 10 feet from the flag - no brainer. The idea of the rules seems to be that the outcome of the choice you make - drop, replay etc - should not already be known before you make the choice.

With a provo, you have no choice - the first ball is either lost or not.

 

[Beezerk]

The provo is only for a possibly lost/OOB ball. Once you find the ball in a hazard, you can't say 'Well, handily enough I already played another shot from the same place'. One reason may be that you would be that the nature of the choice is influenced strongly by what you did with the provo. Sitting 10 feet from the flag - no brainer. The idea of the rules seems to be that the outcome of the choice you make - drop, replay etc - should not already be known before you make the choice.

With a provo, you have no choice - the first ball is either lost or not.

Ok thanks I see what you mean, so I should have either dropped as I did or gone back to the tee and played another, ignoring my provisional.

 

[Ethan]

Ok thanks I see what you mean, so I should have either dropped as I did or gone back to the tee and played another, ignoring my provisional.

Yep. It seems odd at first but there is a harsh logic behind it.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Thanks for the replies, I guess my confusion is one of the options of being in the hazard is to replay the shot which got me there, right? Is this not the point of playing a provisional as I was sure the ball was in the hazard in the first place?
Btw by unplayable I meant I couldn't hit it as it lies as I'd have been standing in the pond

Rule 27-2 states that a provisional can only be played for a ball that "may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" So you would have been standing in the pond, you made of sugar or something?

 

[Beezerk]

Yep. It seems odd at first but there is a harsh logic behind it.

Sorry to bang on about this, seeing that my original tee shot had clearly gone into the water hazard, could I have from that point decided that my second tee shot (what I thought was a provisional) was the one I was going to play as long as I'd declared it first?

 

[rulefan]

Sorry to bang on about this, seeing that my original tee shot had clearly gone into the water hazard, could I have from that point decided that my second tee shot (what I thought was a provisional) was the one I was going to play as long as I'd declared it first?

If you know the ball is in the WH before you play the 'provisional', then whatever you say makes no difference. That ball is not a provisional but the ball in play and the original is dead.

If you have a doubt about it being in the WH and announce your second is a provisional, you are now committed. If on your way down the fairway you change your mind and decide the ball is definitely in the WH, you can't use the second ball. You must play under the WH rule, which may mean going back to the tee.

 

[Beezerk]

If you know the ball is in the WH before you play the 'provisional', then whatever you say makes no difference. That ball is not a provisional but the ball in play and the original is dead.

If you have a doubt about it being in the WH and announce your second is a provisional, you are now committed. If on your way down the fairway you change your mind and decide the ball is definitely in the WH, you can't use the second ball. You must play under the WH rule, which may mean going back to the tee.

Bugger, so I should have just played my second then as we all saw my first tee shot go into the hazard. Lesson learnt.

 

[doublebogey7]

Guess it all boil's down to when you became aware that the first ball was virtually certain to be in the Water Hazard. If it was before you played your second ball from the tee then that ball could not be a provisional and was therefore the ball in play and you should have proceeded with that. If though you became aware after playing the provisional then you should have proceeded under Rule 26.

 

[North Mimms]

Shame you didn't decide in advance that your second ball was "three off the tee" then the finding of your first ball in the hazard would have been academic.

But- of course - only Provisionals go straight onto the green. If you had put a new ball into play on the tee, odds are, it would have gone in the hazard too (Unofficial Rules of golf!)

 

[Beezerk]

Guess it all boil's down to when you became aware that the first ball was virtually certain to be in the Water Hazard.

We all saw it hop over the bank and cross the yellow staked "line" but because it was out of view we couldn't be sure whether it was actually in the water or not. So yes, it was definitely in the water hazard.

 

[Ethan]

Sorry to bang on about this, seeing that my original tee shot had clearly gone into the water hazard, could I have from that point decided that my second tee shot (what I thought was a provisional) was the one I was going to play as long as I'd declared it first?

Well I read the original post as saying that you played a prov not sure whether your ball was in a hazard or otherwise lost. If it is virtually certain that it went into a hazard you can't play a prov and the next tee ball would be the ball in play. But you can't say that you will play a prov because you aren't sure and then seeing the prov settle down beside the flag then revise your opinion of the first to say well, you know, thinling about it that first ball actually was virtually certain to have been in the hazard so that prov isn't really a prov but the ball in play.

 

[Colin L]

Shame you didn't decide in advance that your second ball was "three off the tee" then the finding of your first ball in the hazard would have been academic.

But- of course - only Provisionals go straight onto the green. If you had put a new ball into play on the tee, odds are, it would have gone in the hazard too (Unofficial Rules of golf!)

Note what Rulefan explained in post #11. The OP knew his original ball went into the water hazard. Consequently, it didn't matter what he thought, decided or said about the second ball he played from the tee, it was played under stroke and distance and was the ball in play. By dropping his original ball, he substituted another ball for the ball in play and put it into play from a wrong place. That was his 6th stroke. [drive into water hazard =1 , second ball into play =1 +1, penalty strokes for wrong place =2]. Clearly, however, his playing from a wrong place was not a serious breach considering where his second tee shot ended up.

 

[Beezerk]

Note what Rulefan explained in post #11. The OP knew his original ball went into the water hazard. Consequently, it didn't matter what he thought, decided or said about the second ball he played from the tee, it was played under stroke and distance and was the ball in play. By dropping his original ball, he substituted another ball for the ball in play and put it into play from a wrong place. That was his 6th stroke. [drive into water hazard =1 , second ball into play =1 +1, penalty strokes for wrong place =2]

Yeah thanks mate, by playing the ball in the hazard I'd actually imposed another penalty on myself.

 

[doublebogey7]

We all saw it hop over the bank and cross the yellow staked "line" but because it was out of view we couldn't be sure whether it was actually in the water or not. So yes, it was definitely in the water hazard.

So your second ball could not be a provisional and you should have proceeded with that.

 

[North Mimms]

Note what Rulefan explained in post #11. The OP knew his original ball went into the water hazard. Consequently, it didn't matter what he thought, decided or said about the second ball he played from the tee, it was played under stroke and distance and was the ball in play. By dropping his original ball, he substituted another ball for the ball in play and put it into play from a wrong place. That was his 6th stroke. [drive into water hazard =1 , second ball into play =1 +1, penalty strokes for wrong place =2]. Clearly, however, his playing from a wrong place was not a serious breach considering where his second tee shot ended up.

I read the OP as originally saying that it may have gone in a hazard, tho subsequent comments made it sound like he was sure. But it seems he didn't know that a provisional wasn't an option if he KNEW if was in a hazard, so I agree that it's well worth clarifying the rights and wrongs