Voluntary cut

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sawtooth

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How do you handle a request for a voluntary cut?

If a player comes to you and wants to trim his handicap by say 2-3 shots because he thinks he is playing at a level better than his handicap suggests.

I’m inclined to deny such requests but welcome your input.
 

Imurg

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If there's evidence of him playing better than his handicap in non-qualifiers then it could be used at Annual Review I imagine.
If he's playing better than handicap in qualifiers then he'll be getting his cuts appropriately.
What reason is he giving?
 
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sawtooth

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If there's evidence of him playing better than his handicap in non-qualifiers then it could be used at Annual Review I imagine.
If he's playing better than handicap in qualifiers then he'll be getting his cuts appropriately.
What reason is he giving?
I think he blew someone away in a KO, just wondered what other people do.
 

rulefan

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How do you handle a request for a voluntary cut?

If a player comes to you and wants to trim his handicap by say 2-3 shots because he thinks he is playing at a level better than his handicap suggests.

I’m inclined to deny such requests but welcome your input.
I suggest you read Clause 23.7 and Appendix M in the CONGU Manual

23.7 In exceptional circumstances the Handicap Committee may adjust the handicap of a player in the period between Annual Reviews if there is compelling evidence that his Exact Handicap does not reflect his current playing ability. Appendix M must be consulted for guidance.
 

jim8flog

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A large number of my cuts 16 - 8 were by request but they were backed up by a number of scores well below handicap and at a time before computers handled handicaps.

It mainly started because I spent an entire summer just playing knockouts and no other comps. First medal I won by 6 shots from nearest other competitor so got cut an additional one!! next medal I won by 4 shots better than nearest competitor and got cut an additional 1!! I gave up asking the then secretary but the new one was more prepared to listen.
 

Swango1980

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As rulefan says, you need to have compelling evidence. If it is on the back of one convincing match play result, that is very unlikely justifiable. Liverpoolphil's response is not a bad idea either.
 

rosecott

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Perhaps you could tell the player that the system does not allow for voluntary cuts but he is at liberty to enter on his scorecard as low a handicap as he thinks appropriate.
 

Swango1980

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Perhaps you could tell the player that the system does not allow for voluntary cuts but he is at liberty to enter on his scorecard as low a handicap as he thinks appropriate.
That's a good idea actually.

I've never come across it, but in practical terms what would happen? I assume the comp result will work out the score based on your lower handicap on card (as you can also enter a lower handicap on PSI), but in the background your handicap record would still use your proper handicap when working out the nett differential, and your actual handicap would also be used in the CSS calculation?
 

Fish

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I think he blew someone away in a KO, just wondered what other people do.
I assume you mean in a matchplay format, which cannot, or shouldn’t be taken into consideration for handicap purposes imo, as you’re playing the opposite player, not the course!

I'm very dangerous in matchplay, I’m constantly selected by my Pro to play in Pro Am’s all over the Midlands and in team events, but one-on-one with the course is totally different and your handicap doesn’t lie, it is what it is.
 

Colin L

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I think this is getting over-complicated. The player is in effect asking for his handicap to be reviewed which is acceptable. So just review his scores and any other evidence and let him know the outcome. His own wishes to have a reduction, whether justifiable or delusional are not evidence.

(Generally, I only hear of pleas from members to look at their handicaps with a view to an increase.)
 
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sawtooth

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I think this is getting over-complicated. The player is in effect asking for his handicap to be reviewed which is acceptable. So just review his scores and any other evidence and let him know the outcome. His own wishes to have a reduction, whether justifiable or delusional are not evidence.

(Generally, I only hear of pleas from members to look at their handicaps with a view to an increase.)
I agree, most of the time it’s people asking for an increase but that doesn’t happen so much nowadays since the introduction of continuous handicap reviews.

Thanks for all your comments, the annual review is just around the corner so will take a look at the player evidence and go from there.

I’m not inclined to make snap adjustments and it’s reassuring that most here have the same mindset.

4 hour WHS handicap workshop coming up in a few weeks so will find out what is happening in detail about the changes next year.

Should be fun 😗
 

bobmac

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If I was h/cap sec and someone asked me for a cut, I'd let them have it.
If it turns out he can't play to it, he only has himself to blame and only he suffers.
If I don't cut him and he does play well below it, everyone in the next few comps suffer and he could be called all sorts of names behind his back.
 

rulefan

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If I was h/cap sec and someone asked me for a cut, I'd let them have it.
If it turns out he can't play to it, he only has himself to blame and only he suffers.
If I don't cut him and he does play well below it, everyone in the next few comps suffer and he could be called all sorts of names behind his back.
If can't play to his reduced handicap and is drawn to play with you in the prestigious club better ball comp, would you be happy?
Of course his actual score in the match was 5 over but his opponent would have been 10 over if he hadn't picked up on every alternate hole.
 

jim8flog

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If I was h/cap sec and someone asked me for a cut, I'd let them have it.
If it turns out he can't play to it, he only has himself to blame and only he suffers.
If I don't cut him and he does play well below it, everyone in the next few comps suffer and he could be called all sorts of names behind his back.
Every player scores affects the CSS calculation (which affects the handicaps of all players) and for that reason it important that all players are correctly handicapped.

Having players that are under handicapped is as bad as players that are over handicapped.
 

bobmac

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If can't play to his reduced handicap and is drawn to play with you in the prestigious club better ball comp, would you be happy?
So you are asking do I cut him or not, knowing he's my BB partner?
Absolutely cut him.
I'd rather cut him and loose than not cut him and win.


Every player scores affects the CSS calculation (which affects the handicaps of all players) and for that reason it important that all players are correctly handicapped.
Genuine question
What difference would it make to the CSS on a comp of 150 competitors if matey finishes 2 shots over his h/cap instead of one shot?
 

Swango1980

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So you are asking do I cut him or not, knowing he's my BB partner?
Absolutely cut him.
I'd rather cut him and loose than not cut him and win.



Genuine question
What difference would it make to the CSS on a comp of 150 competitors if matey finishes 2 shots over his h/cap instead of one shot?
The CONGU manual is very clear that players should not he under handicapped due to potential impact on CSS

For example, it it is decided at Review that a player is to get a handicap increase, they cannot decline this increase, just like a player can't decline a reduction. They may appeal it, but not flat out refuse it.
 

rulefan

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Genuine question
What difference would it make to the CSS on a comp of 150 competitors if matey finishes 2 shots over his h/cap instead of one shot?
But would you do it for every player who asked for a reduction?
If so, and 50% of the field had been pulled, it would certainly affect the CSS. It would also affect the PCC under WHS.
 

jim8flog

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Genuine question
What difference would it make to the CSS on a comp of 150 competitors if matey finishes 2 shots over his h/cap instead of one shot?[/QUOTE]

That is a pretty big field and one players score would probably not make that much difference but where I play we have plenty of comps with a field size of just around 20 players and one players score will have a much bigger impact.
 
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