USGA Handicap

[scubascuba3]

I'm currently in Thailand and have 2 handicaps, one CONGU and one USGA (best 10 from 20), the handicaps can really vary, with pre round slope adjustment my difference is +3, a friend is +6 with USGA. To me the calculation looks sensible so I'm quite happy with it. Where it doesn't work is when in Thailand in a comp it includes USGA handicaps and CONGU handicaps, little chance winning with CONGU.

My question is what do people think particularly the experts, about the USGA handicap system? Relevant as our new handicap system will be based on that / Aussie system.

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm currently in Thailand and have 2 handicaps, one CONGU and one USGA (best 10 from 20), the handicaps can really vary, with pre round slope adjustment my difference is +3, a friend is +6 with USGA. To me the calculation looks sensible so I'm quite happy with it. Where it doesn't work is when in Thailand in a comp it includes USGA handicaps and CONGU handicaps, little chance winning with CONGU.

My question is what do people think particularly the experts, about the USGA handicap system? Relevant as our new handicap system will be based on that / Aussie system.

Not sure I understand the question but, if relevant, I ran my calculations on the USGA basis for a few years recently and was pretty much the same when going down but huge difference when my game went into decline eg I was 8 on both about 5 years ago and am 12 on CONGU but 19 on USGA basis (if you play a lot, but not in Q comps, and badly this happens!).
When most of your golf is Q comps the differences are very small (going both ways and including ESR and newer increase mechanisms)
When you are playing consistently to your CONGU handicap your USGA one will calculate very closely too.

CONGU take the general view that a 12 handicapper doesn't become a 20 overnight (without good reason that can be covered by committee action under the guidelines); and I tend to agree.

 

[scubascuba3]

Not sure I understand the question but, if relevant, I ran my calculations on the USGA basis for a few years recently and was pretty much the same when going down but huge difference when my game went into decline eg I was 8 on both about 5 years ago and am 12 on CONGU but 19 on USGA basis (if you play a lot, but not in Q comps, and badly this happens!).
When most of your golf is Q comps the differences are very small (going both ways and including ESR and newer increase mechanisms)
When you are playing consistently to your CONGU handicap your USGA one will calculate very closely too.

CONGU take the general view that a 12 handicapper doesn't become a 20 overnight (without good reason that can be covered by committee action under the guidelines); and I tend to agree.

The two systems can produce very different results, i just wondered whether people think that's ok. One thing that is questionable is the manual input of scores for handicap purposes. Easy to make errors and not adjust gross score correctly.

 

[bobmac]

Not sure I understand the question but, if relevant, I ran my calculations on the USGA basis for a few years recently and was pretty much the same when going down but huge difference when my game went into decline eg I was 8 on both about 5 years ago and am 12 on CONGU but 19 on USGA basis (if you play a lot, but not in Q comps, and badly this happens!).
When most of your golf is Q comps the differences are very small (going both ways and including ESR and newer increase mechanisms)
When you are playing consistently to your CONGU handicap your USGA one will calculate very closely too.

CONGU take the general view that a 12 handicapper doesn't become a 20 overnight (without good reason that can be covered by committee action under the guidelines); and I tend to agree.

So if we copy the Americans (as we always do) will it not be easier for bandits to win comps, get cut and within a short time go up again?

 

[Imurg]

So if we copy the Americans (as we always do) will it not be easier for bandits to win comps, get cut and within a short time go up again?

If handicaps are based on best 10 from the last 20 rounds, it would seem so....

 

[duncan mackie]

So if we copy the Americans (as we always do) will it not be easier for bandits to win comps, get cut and within a short time go up again?

Simple answer is yes. It is clearly easier to manipulate your handicap when you can basically enter any scores into your record that you wish...

Longer answer is that handicap committees will have more work to do in this area if the USGA handicap system were to be implemented in full (not to be confused with course ratings and slope !) but it's possible that it won't be. Most likely (IMO) is for a retention of a widened concept of Q scores or a very significant weighting to them. Unfortunately this would probably move BB and team scores outside it and baby leaves with bathwater in many people's minds.

There's no perfect system, but CONGU is pretty dammed good at the top end of the spectrum. It's focus their is also it's weakness when it comes to the bogey golfer competing other than on their home course. The key issues returned to over and over again are not the fault of the system but those responsible for policing it!

 

[MadAdey]

If your an honest golfer then the US system is good and not that easy to manipulate. You have pretty much got to play 20 really crappy rounds in a row to make your handicap jump up. The last couple of months I have not been playing that well and my handicap has only gone up a couple of shots even though I have been averaging to about a 6/7 handicap, I am still playing off a lower handicap.

Of course it is easier to manipulate your handicap up a couple of shots with the US system, but on the other hand it catches up with rapidly improving golfers quicker than the CONGU system.

 

[scubascuba3]

The glaring problem with the USGA system is you have to enter an adjusted gross score. I'm pretty sure people get confused with this and enter their actual gross which means their handicap will be artificially high.

 

[MadAdey]

The glaring problem with the USGA system is you have to enter an adjusted gross score. I'm pretty sure people get confused with this and enter their actual gross which means their handicap will be artificially high.

Not at all. You use the GHIN software that you can get an app for on your iPhone. Put your true gross score in and it will make the adjusted gross for you.

 

[scubascuba3]

A lot of the old folk i play with in Thailand struggle with tech and have basic nokia type phones.unlikely to be able to download apps. Some people will just do the calc in their head and make mistakes.

IMO it needs a checker to authorise a score. Every score should be checked by someone. That will help discover any errors and or cheats

 

[duncan mackie]

A lot of the old folk i play with in Thailand struggle with tech and have basic nokia type phones.unlikely to be able to download apps. Some people will just do the calc in their head and make mistakes.

IMO it needs a checker to authorise a score. Every score should be checked by someone. That will help discover any errors and or cheats

You can't check for cheating in this context. Entered scores can be monitored (exception reporting) but that then requires someone to have personal knowledge to enable them to know that it's 'false'. Give that the underlying premise of that system is that it tracks short term performance (when CONGU doesn't accept it's relevance) it's hard to constructively achieve.
Madadey hits the nail on the head when stating that it's hard for an honest golfer to manipulate the system (why would they?)- but its incredibly simple, and quick, for an active dishonest one!

 

[scubascuba3]

You can't check for cheating in this context. Entered scores can be monitored (exception reporting) but that then requires someone to have personal knowledge to enable them to know that it's 'false'. Give that the underlying premise of that system is that it tracks short term performance (when CONGU doesn't accept it's relevance) it's hard to constructively achieve.
Madadey hits the nail on the head when stating that it's hard for an honest golfer to manipulate the system (why would they?)- but its incredibly simple, and quick, for an active dishonest one!

People always talk about other people cheating but from my experience of using the USGA system its much more likely to be errors. When you play golf for a score there is a minimum of two players, that other player should check and authorise the score entered. Shouldn't be difficult to do, just a minute or two.

 

[rulefan]

People always talk about other people cheating but from my experience of using the USGA system its much more likely to be errors. When you play golf for a score there is a minimum of two players, that other player should check and authorise the score entered. Shouldn't be difficult to do, just a minute or two.

Not sure if you meant this but although the USGA system now (since this year) requires round to be accompanied, it does not require them to be a golfer or to act as a marker.

 

[scubascuba3]

Not sure if you meant this but although the USGA system now (since this year) requires round to be accompanied, it does not require them to be a golfer or to act as a marker.

So previously single golfers could just put a score in?

For me the checker/authoriser of the round online would fix the current issues. A lot of people don't trust the system here

 

[rulefan]

In theory the USGA system has a lot going for it, particularly slope which EG men will eventually catch up with.

The problem is that about half of US players don't carry a handicap. A lot of golf is played "off the stick end". Of those that do, because of the facility to return unattested scores, I guess that 30%+ are bandits and 30%+ carry vanity caps. Sloppy adherence by players and clubs (especially in course marking) doesn't enhance the reputation. Not the fault of the principle, just the implementation.

 

[Dasit]

Can your handicap not change around really quick if you are using the USGA system? I might play 20 rounds in the space of 2 months over the summer, if I am going through a bit of a swing change it could knock my handicap back a lot.

 

[scubascuba3]

Can your handicap not change around really quick if you are using the USGA system? I might play 20 rounds in the space of 2 months over the summer, if I am going through a bit of a swing change it could knock my handicap back a lot.

Yes HCs can move much quicker than CONGU.

Interestingly i won a comp yesterday with 32 points, with CONGU it will be a non counter, for my USGA HC the score replaces one of my best 10 from 20 so my handicap reduces slightly.