Undue Delay

[Deleted member 30522]

OK, I'm following a facebook post on this, and don't agree with those saying either of these should get an undue delay penalty?

First posit: Guy does what we've all done and not shut his trolly off, it trundles away into the undergrowth, to such an extent that they actually struggled to find it. Most seem to think that's a penalty for undue delay, I think it's perfectly reasonable to go and look for a trolly and clubs worth thousands of pounds, just wave the next group through?

Second posit: Forgetting a club on the last tee and running back to get it. Again, undue delay?

Not for me in either case, but maybe I'm too soft?

 

[chrisd]

Not for me either

Undue delay, for me, is sheltering in rain or going to the car park to get a banana that the player forgot ........

 

[jim8flog]

I would have said it is covered by the interpretations
Unreasonable delays in the context of Rule 5.6a are delays caused by a player’s actions that are within the player’s control and affect other players or delay the competition. Brief delays that are a result of normal events that happen during a round or are outside the player’s control are generally treated as “reasonable”.

Determining which actions are reasonable or unreasonable depends on all the circumstances, including whether the player is waiting for other players in the group or the group ahead.

Second point is covered by the interpretations specificly

Examples of actions that, if causing more than a brief delay in play, are likely to be treated as unreasonable delay are:

• Returning to the teeing area from the putting green to retrieve a lost club.

 

[salfordlad]

For me, immediately chasing the clubs that are heading off under their own steam is not automatically undue delay, unless they get away and you are absent for more than a brief delay. And as noted above, the club left behind is explicitly covered in an interpretation - more than a brief delay is a breach of 5.6a.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

I'd like to say I know the rules OK, but thanks for the steer on this one

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Not for me either

Undue delay, for me, is sheltering in rain or going to the car park to get a banana that the player forgot ........

I would have said exactly this too Chris, from the answers here (and on FB) seems we're not correct

 

[wjemather]

OK, I'm following a facebook post on this, and don't agree with those saying either of these should get an undue delay penalty?

First posit: Guy does what we've all done and not shut his trolly off, it trundles away into the undergrowth, to such an extent that they actually struggled to find it. Most seem to think that's a penalty for undue delay, I think it's perfectly reasonable to go and look for a trolly and clubs worth thousands of pounds, just wave the next group through?

Second posit: Forgetting a club on the last tee and running back to get it. Again, undue delay?

Not for me in either case, but maybe I'm too soft?

If the club/clubs can be retrieved almost immediately then it's probably ok; if there is any searching required, or it will take a significant time to get there and back, it is very likely to constitute an Unreasonable Delay of Play.

In reality, any penalty imposed will depend on the organising committee. In most competitions (with no officials on course, and where the interpretation of "reasonable" and "brief" is a bit looser) it's highly unlikely any such rules infraction will be called, but in something like a county or national event, either scenario is almost certainly going trigger a penalty.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I would have said it is covered by the interpretations
Unreasonable delays in the context of Rule 5.6a are delays caused by a player’s actions that are within the player’s control and affect other players or delay the competition. Brief delays that are a result of normal events that happen during a round or are outside the player’s control are generally treated as “reasonable”.

Determining which actions are reasonable or unreasonable depends on all the circumstances, including whether the player is waiting for other players in the group or the group ahead.

Second point is covered by the interpretations specificly

Examples of actions that, if causing more than a brief delay in play, are likely to be treated as unreasonable delay are:

• Returning to the teeing area from the putting green to retrieve a lost club.

As with all these interpretations the detail is in the eye of the beholder! What's a brief delay? 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 7 minutes, ...........

 

[rulie]

If the club/clubs can be retrieved almost immediately then it's probably ok; if there is any searching required, or it will take a significant time to get there and back, it is very likely to constitute an Unreasonable Delay of Play.

In reality, any penalty imposed will depend on the organising committee. In most competitions (with no officials on course, and where the interpretation of "reasonable" and "brief" is a bit looser) it's highly unlikely any such rules infraction will be called, but in something like a county or national event, either scenario is almost certainly going trigger a penalty.

I've been refereeing for nearly 20 years, in local, provincial, national and international events, and have not seen a penalty for unreasonable ("undue" prior to 2019) delay applied outside of a pace of play situation.

 

[rulefan]

Nor I.

 

[wjemather]

I've been refereeing for nearly 20 years, in local, provincial, national and international events, and have not seen a penalty for unreasonable ("undue" prior to 2019) delay applied outside of a pace of play situation.

Nor I.

It's not something that is going to arise very often. In a county event a few years ago, one of my playing partners did get warned that he would be penalised if he went looking for his wedge (left by an earlier green); the official in question was happy to look for it and return it to him, which he did a few holes later.

 

[Foxholer]

It's not something that is going to arise very often. In a county event a few years ago, one of my playing partners did get warned that he would be penalised if he went looking for his wedge (left by an earlier green); the official in question was happy to look for it and return it to him, which he did a few holes later.

That ruling would be reasonable, because there was a 'suitable' alternative imo - though there would be a period where 'the official' would not be attending the group (presumably in a 'rules/rulings' capacity). Where no such 'alternative' exists, then, imo, there should be some leeway, though that too should be 'reasonable' cf open-ended. If the player knows he last used the wedge on the previous hole, then fine; if 3 holes ago, then probably not - as there are 2/3 PPs affected already, and likely approaching 10 others that will also be.
As for the situation in the OP...I believe that was not an 'unreasonable delay'.

 

[rulefan]

It's not something that is going to arise very often. In a county event a few years ago, one of my playing partners did get warned that he would be penalised if he went looking for his wedge (left by an earlier green); the official in question was happy to look for it and return it to him, which he did a few holes later.

Yes. I've occasionally radioed another official on another part of the course to find a wedge that has been left on a green. And as radio broadcasts are 'open' most officials will spread the word around players

 

[Swango1980]

In your first example, if the player was to be penalised for undue delay for fetching his trolley from the undergrowth, I wonder what delay would be caused as he stood over his ball with no clubs to hit it with.