Transgender Swimmer - should she be allowed to compete

[DaveR]

There should be a separate category for transgender athletes, end of.

 

[drdel]

Many years ago (some pros were still playing persimmon woods), before terms like cis-gender existed, I worked in psychiatry, and for a while did sessions in a clinic which saw people with various complaints which included what would now be called gender dysfunction. Because gender reassignment is a big deal and may include risks and points of no return, one of the big priorities was to determine if the anxiety, distress and depression that some of the patients clearly had was really due to their perception of being in the wrong bodies, as it were. So some deep counselling/analysis was conducted and it often emerged that it really wasn't the core problem and something else was uncovered. Equally, sometimes people had reassignment and it didn't change their mindset, sometimes made it worse. On the other hand, I saw some people who had successful reassignment, usually male to female, and did well. Of course, this didn't include people with physical intersex conditions, whose issues are more endocrinological than psychological.

That's the bit that worries me when kids are getting reassignment treatments.

 

[Captainron]

See they have a sensible ruling on this! Must have transitioned by age 12 to compete as a female. Also creating an “open” category for those who transition later on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

 

[Foxholer]

See they have a sensible ruling on this! Must have transitioned by age 12 to compete as a female. Also creating an “open” category for those who transition later on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

Exactly as it should be imo. Will likely put 'late realisers' at a disadvantage, but the 'open' category allows them to compete if desired and obvious mismatches are almost certainly eliminated.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Exactly as it should be imo. Will likely put 'late realisers' at a disadvantage, but the 'open' category allows them to compete if desired and obvious mismatches are almost certainly eliminated.

Will anyone actually compete in the open category though? Has that category just been announced for show in reality?

 

[louise_a]

Creating an open category is just a cop out as there are so few transgendered people wanting to compete in the first place.

 

[Foxholer]

Will anyone actually compete in the open category though? Has that category just been announced for show in reality?

I think they will - such as the guy/gal who seems to have triggered this action.
But, imo, it won't be a high profile category - at least not in the short term. Swimming will get back to having 'pure' competitions again cf 'anomolies' producing seemingly outstanding results.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Creating an open category is just a cop out as there are so few transgendered people wanting to compete in the first place.

So what’s the answer then? To allow transgendered males to compete as female athletes completely destroys the level playing field for birth female athletes, so how else do we accommodate transgendered males?

 

[sweaty sock]

So are there 3 categories, Male, Female, Open. Or are there just 2, Female, Open.

If there are 3 then the open category is a bit pointless so I'm assuming theres only 2 and anyone whos gone through male puberty just end up with the blokes?

 

[cliveb]

See they have a sensible ruling on this! Must have transitioned by age 12 to compete as a female. Also creating an “open” category for those who transition later on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.

 

[Lilyhawk]

This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.

I would say it’s irresponsible if any country allowed for 12-year olds to undergo such procedures. Probably put it in place knowing that it will effectively put an end to the issue.

 

[Ethan]

This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.

It is not a recommendation to transition early, it simply recognises that once pubertal changes have occurred, it is too late to allow (particular male-female) athletes to fairly compete with biological females.

 

[louise_a]

So what’s the answer then? To allow transgendered males to compete as female athletes completely destroys the level playing field for birth female athletes, so how else do we accommodate transgendered males?

I do not know the answer, and fyi a transgendered male is someone born female

 

[cliveb]

It is not a recommendation to transition early, it simply recognises that once pubertal changes have occurred, it is too late to allow (particular male-female) athletes to fairly compete with biological females.

In which case if the governing body doesn't believe post-pubertals can compete fairly, and if it doesn't want to suggest that pre-pubertals could transition, then why not just ban any transitioned swimmer from competing in the female catagory?

 

[Swango1980]

In which case if the governing body doesn't believe post-pubertals can compete fairly, and if it doesn't want to suggest that pre-pubertals could transition, then why not just ban any transitioned swimmer from competing in the female catagory?

This is probably because the governing body for swimming recognises it is not in the position to state the suitable age at which a person can transition. That is up to medical professionals, and probably government policies, to decide what is and isn't responsible. If the swimming governing body just cast a blanket ban on all transitioned swimmers, and then a case came about in which an athlete had transitioned as a child for whatever reason, then they'd have to justify why this athlete could not compete if the only data they have is related to people that transition post puberty.

 

[Tashyboy]

This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.

For me that is not the disturbing part. The disturbing ( If that is the way to say it) part is that some kids under 12 have already choosen whether they want to be gay or straight. In fact I posted about this the other week. I talked about this to the lads last week on the course. One of the guys told me that through his second marriage he has a child in the first year at comp. The school is obviously discussing race, multicultural society and amongst others sexuality. They are taught it is ok to be male, female, gay or in fact non binary and quite a few have already chosen that route. I don’t have a problem with that whatsoever. But as in the case of Dame Kelly Holmes she has stated it is a massive decision even as an adult yet 12 years olds that cannot even legally have sex are choosing there sexuality.
Re children making a decision on transition, I don’t think many will be swayed by the fact they cannot compete at swimming as adults if they do or don’t transition. That said at least swimming have left open the door for some to compete in the future.

 

[Orikoru]

For me that is not the disturbing part. The disturbing ( If that is the way to say it) part is that some kids under 12 have already choosen whether they want to be gay or straight. In fact I posted about this the other week. I talked about this to the lads last week on the course. One of the guys told me that through his second marriage he has a child in the first year at comp. The school is obviously discussing race, multicultural society and amongst others sexuality. They are taught it is ok to be male, female, gay or in fact non binary and quite a few have already chosen that route. I don’t have a problem with that whatsoever. But as in the case of Dame Kelly Holmes she has stated it is a massive decision even as an adult yet 12 years olds that cannot even legally have sex are choosing there sexuality.
Re children making a decision on transition, I don’t think many will be swayed by the fact they cannot compete at swimming as adults if they do or don’t transition. That said at least swimming have left open the door for some to compete in the future.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt with poor wording, but you know that's not how it works, right??

In which case if the governing body doesn't believe post-pubertals can compete fairly, and if it doesn't want to suggest that pre-pubertals could transition, then why not just ban any transitioned swimmer from competing in the female catagory?

I agree with you. I really don't think children should be thinking about transitioning as it's such a massive decision, I'd prefer they didn't even acknowledge that by the way they've worded it. I think there should be laws against transitioning as a child. How can you possibly know that unquestionably if you've not even gone through puberty?? Madness.

 

[Tashyboy]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt with poor wording, but you know that's not how it works, right??


I agree with you. I really don't think children should be thinking about transitioning as it's such a massive decision, I'd prefer they didn't even acknowledge that by the way they've worded it. I think there should be laws against transitioning as a child. How can you possibly know that unquestionably if you've not even gone through puberty?? Madness.

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/“-grandad-what-country-are-lesbians-from”.112209/

Try explaining that to a 10 yr old in primary school 😳👍

 

[Orikoru]

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/“-grandad-what-country-are-lesbians-from”.112209/

Try explaining that to a 10 yr old in primary school 😳👍

I'm telling you you don't "choose whether you want to be gay or straight". That's not how it works. You just are what you are. People will realise they are gay at different ages but they've not chosen it.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I do not know the answer, and fyi a transgendered male is someone born female

Thank you for the correction 👍