Tortoise in the Bunker - move the ball - or the tortoise ??

[greenandgreen]

Last week, whilst enjoying a round of golf in Belek, Turkey, my wife played an approach shot to the 2nd hole on the Sueno Dunes Course. On approaching her ball it was found to be resting adjacent to a 'not very happy- but very alive' tortoise.

We were having a friendly discussion about a ruling in such a situation and could not resolve the argument.To play the ball as it lies may have resulted to an injury to the tortoise, who was sensibly keeping his head tucked in. To move the tortoise would have dislodged the ball.

Obviously the ball could be moved and dropped in the bunker elsewhere - but would this attract a penalty ?

Having returned to the UK now we are still not sure of whether she could have avoided a penalty. (being a friendly holiday round of golf, I naturally allowed my wife to drop the ball without penalty)....oh and I must say that no animals were harmed during the filming of this incident.

Views would be welcomed ?

 

[CliveW]

There was a "Bug" (Daddy Long Legs) in one of the bunkers at the Ladies Open yesterday and the player asked for a ruling. The decision was that it couldn't be moved otherwise a penalty was incurred and the ball had to be played as it lay. Same ruling for a tortoise I suspect.

 

[duncan mackie]

There was a "Bug" (Daddy Long Legs) in one of the bunkers at the Ladies Open yesterday and the player asked for a ruling. The decision was that it couldn't be moved otherwise a penalty was incurred and the ball had to be played as it lay. Same ruling for a tortoise I suspect.

well - by definition the insect is a Loose Impediment; and rule 13-4 prohibits the removal of loose impediments in a bunker........(if they can be persuaded to move without touching them fine)

a live tortoise would be an outside agency; a dead tortoise would be a loose impediment.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Tricky!

Perhaps there should be a local Rule like the one covering stones in Bunkers

Apart from the decisions covering dead and living animals (Decision 23/6 - Dead Land Crab and Decision 23/6.5 - Status of Snake) which Duncan has effectively summarised, the nearest Decision I can find is 1-4/9 - Bird's Nest Interfering with Stroke, which states that "It is unreasonable to expect the player to play from such a situation and unfair to require the player to incur a penalty stroke...", and, if this occurs in a hazard, provides for the ball to be dropped without penalty in the hazard within 1 club length of the nearest spot where the stroke won't damage the nest not nearer the hole, of if that isn't possible to be dropped under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

I would say this is an analogous situation and so a drop as suggested would seem to be the right solution.

I would think that it would be best to drop the ball rather than move the tortoise on the basis that you probably shouldn't interfere with the local wildlife and you don't know what bugs it might be carrying.

Would be interested in other views.

 

[Scouser]

well - by definition the insect is a Loose Impediment; and rule 13-4 prohibits the removal of loose impediments in a bunker........(if they can be persuaded to move without touching them fine)

a live tortoise would be an outside agency; a dead tortoise would be a loose impediment.

Why is a live inset a loose Impediment but a dead tortoise a loose impediment.....

 

[chrisd]

Would do as you suggest Mashie, some things transcend the rules

 

[Scouser]

Would do as you suggest Mashie, some things transcend the rules

http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/32.asp

:thup:

 

[duncan mackie]

Why is a live inset a loose Impediment but a dead tortoise a loose impediment.....

because that's what the definition of a loose impediment tells us. confirmed in various decisions as post #4 lists.

 

[Scouser]

because that's what the definition of a loose impediment tells us. confirmed in various decisions as post #4 lists.

Am I reading it right that you would have a penalty drop from the tortoise if alive?????????

 

[duncan mackie]

Tricky!

Perhaps there should be a local Rule like the one covering stones in Bunkers

Apart from the decisions covering dead and living animals (Decision 23/6 - Dead Land Crab and Decision 23/6.5 - Status of Snake) which Duncan has effectively summarised, the nearest Decision I can find is 1-4/9 - Bird's Nest Interfering with Stroke, which states that "It is unreasonable to expect the player to play from such a situation and unfair to require the player to incur a penalty stroke...", and, if this occurs in a hazard, provides for the ball to be dropped without penalty in the hazard within 1 club length of the nearest spot where the stroke won't damage the nest not nearer the hole, of if that isn't possible to be dropped under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the point where the ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

I would say this is an analogous situation and so a drop as suggested would seem to be the right solution.

I would think that it would be best to drop the ball rather than move the tortoise on the basis that you probably shouldn't interfere with the local wildlife and you don't know what bugs it might be carrying.

Would be interested in other views.

1-4/10 doesn't seem to support this MN. I think you would be expected to move the tortoise.

 

[duncan mackie]

Am I reading it right that you would have a penalty drop from the tortoise if alive?????????

no, wrong way round.

you would if you wanted relief from a dead one.

 

[Scouser]

no, wrong way round.

you would if you wanted relief from a dead one.

Right no wonder i was confused!!

Thanks for that....surly though its wrong to hit a dead tortoise even the thought of it :swing:

 

[MashieNiblick]

1-4/10 doesn't seem to support this MN. I think you would be expected to move the tortoise.

Hmmm.

Still feel 1-4/9 is the closest situation.

1-4/10 covers a situation dangerous to the player; 1-4/9 covers a situation dangerous to the wildlife.

Maybe it would be down to the player, but I would rather not disturb the little fella.

One other approach that did occur to me is that 23-6/5 simply said a live snake is an outside agency whereas a dead one is both an OA and a loose impediment. I infer a live snake, and therefore a live tortoise, is not therefore also a LI, and there is no penalty for moving an "outside agency" in a hazard. So you can move the tortoise with no penalty. But what if the ball moves as a result?

Trouble with moving the tortoise is that it might get annoyed and chase after you and from what I've heard about some resort golf, it might catch you.

The other thing that occurred to me was that, given the different status of live and dead animals, you might end up having an argument about whether the animal was dead or alive, especially if was a Norwegian blue that was "resting". Certainly wouldn't want to damage that beautiful plumage.

 

[JustOne]

I think the ruling mentioned above was VERY WRONG to declare a daddy long legs as a loose impediment, no creature should 'knowingly' be hurt whilst perfoming a golf swing in my opinion. It would have been fair to at least nudge it on it's way with a golf tee or similar. The rules are seemingly stupid VERY OFTEN. I wouldn't want to be swinging through a dead tortoise (or any other creature) to be quite honest and i definitely wouldn't want to be ending the life of ANY if I can help it.

I don't see why it's so hard to mark your ball and remove the offending animal/creature and replace your ball if it should move (nb: you can do it when your opponent's ball is right next to yours) so why not in this situation? Ridiculous.