too many golf courses????

[patricks148]

Just read in the Scottish Golfer Mag that there are plans to build another championship links course just north of Dornoch on the Embo estate.

Not sure how viable that is or just another course for Rich Americans..

Are we getting to the stage, that there are too many courses?

 

[Blue in Munich]

I suppose like any commercial venture, whether or not we have too many will be decided by whether enough people join or pay green fees to keep it viable. There have been a few struggling and going under recently so maybe we have, but from your comments I'm guessing that this one is aimed at those who aren't "all in it together" like the rest of us so will probably not struggle for business.

 

[patricks148]

I suppose like any commercial venture, whether or not we have too many will be decided by whether enough people join or pay green fees to keep it viable. There have been a few struggling and going under recently so maybe we have, but from your comments I'm guessing that this one is aimed at those who aren't "all in it together" like the rest of us so will probably not struggle for business.

Trouble is the other courses surrounding Royal Dornoch are all Struggling and rely on the overflow from there. it just means that less visitors going to Tain, Brora, Golspie, etc. esp with the extra course being built at Castle Stuart. so when people come up to play CS, Dornoch and a couple of others to make the trip worth while.

 

[Hobbit]

Trouble is the other courses surrounding Royal Dornoch are all Struggling and rely on the overflow from there. it just means that less visitors going to Tain, Brora, Golspie, etc. esp with the extra course being built at Castle Stuart. so when people come up to play CS, Dornoch and a couple of others to make the trip worth while.

But will it make Tain, Brora, Golspie etc improve their offerings to compete?

 

[IanG]

Trouble is the other courses surrounding Royal Dornoch are all Struggling and rely on the overflow from there. it just means that less visitors going to Tain, Brora, Golspie, etc. esp with the extra course being built at Castle Stuart. so when people come up to play CS, Dornoch and a couple of others to make the trip worth while.

You might be right, but it may work the other way too, with visitors now seeing the Dornoch Firth as an area to linger longer and play Dornoch, the new Coul/Embo course and hanging around to play the other local gems. At the moment I suspect a lot of folk nip to Dornoch for the day coupling it with CS or Nairn (me included).

With the new course in place there are six regions in Scotland where you could easily spend 5 days and play different cracking courses on each day

Ayrshire
St Andrews
Aberdeen
East Lothian
inversneck
Dornoch Firth

and for the more energetic you could throw in Arran/Machrahanish/Islay too.

 

[Jacko_G]

New course is being designed by Crenshaw and Coore, widely regarded as making/designing/building the best courses in America these days.

I think it can only benefit Tain, Golspie etc. Another top class course in the area will mean more golfers staying longer in the area. I actually think it'll hit the two Nairn courses more than Tain, Golspie etc. Tain is an absolute gem, Golspie is also a nice track. Dornoch is the best course I've ever played and blows the rest of the Highland tracks away. Another course like Dornoch will surely benefit that area and the increase visitor numbers.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I thought the rumour was that the new course in Dornoch would just be a rich man's play thing and is mostly being built for the owner to use. Not sure if it will be open to the general public.

 

[IanG]

I thought the rumour was that the new course in Dornoch would just be a rich man's play thing and is mostly being built for the owner to use. Not sure if it will be open to the general public.

I thought that was the new course in Jura that was going to be a private plaything.

 

[GreiginFife]

I thought that was the new course in Jura that was going to be a private plaything.

Which is a shame as it looks like that could be something really special.

 

[patricks148]

But will it make Tain, Brora, Golspie etc improve their offerings to compete?

These are very small members clubs with perhaps only 200-300 members and would rely on a bit of overspill from Royal Dornoch. not sure they can improve offerings as most are struggling and these are small towns anyway so only have a limited pool of potential members.
The main draw is Royal Dornoch with its Donald Ross connection, they have over 10,000 green fee's per season, which as you can imagine at over £100 per pop as a tidy sum.

You might be right, but it may work the other way too, with visitors now seeing the Dornoch Firth as an area to linger longer and play Dornoch, the new Coul/Embo course and hanging around to play the other local gems. At the moment I suspect a lot of folk nip to Dornoch for the day coupling it with CS or Nairn (me included).

With the new course in place there are six regions in Scotland where you could easily spend 5 days and play different cracking courses on each day

Ayrshire
St Andrews
Aberdeen
East Lothian
inversneck
Dornoch Firth

and for the more energetic you could throw in Arran/Machrahanish/Islay too.

Only problem i see with the Dornoch attraction is a lot of them are from the US and will be making a pilgrimage to Scotland and visit other areas in the trip so i imagine St Andrews and maybe another open course. Most of the guys I.ve spoken to come over for just over a week, Im not sure they are going to come for longer as they are prob already having to make some compromise.

but for the Highlands the main draw is Dornoch pure and simple. my club is in the Highland links Marketing group, which is Castle Stuart, Nairn and Royal Dornoch. We only get a few thousand vistors compared to RD 10,000 +.

 

[patricks148]

New course is being designed by Crenshaw and Coore, widely regarded as making/designing/building the best courses in America these days.

I think it can only benefit Tain, Golspie etc. Another top class course in the area will mean more golfers staying longer in the area. I actually think it'll hit the two Nairn courses more than Tain, Golspie etc. Tain is an absolute gem, Golspie is also a nice track. Dornoch is the best course I've ever played and blows the rest of the Highland tracks away. Another course like Dornoch will surely benefit that area and the increase visitor numbers.

Just my thoughts.

I'm not sure how much of an impact on the Nairn courses, Nairn only gets a few thousand visitors and Dunbar much less again. With the extra course being built at CS as well and them finally building their own accommodation, which prob might have small impact on local hotels. as i said in the other post, most visiting the area are only likely to be there for a few days, so they can't play all of them.

 

[Blue in Munich]

These are very small members clubs with perhaps only 200-300 members and would rely on a bit of overspill from Royal Dornoch. not sure they can improve offerings as most are struggling and these are small towns anyway so only have a limited pool of potential members.
The main draw is Royal Dornoch with its Donald Ross connection, they have over 10,000 green fee's per season, which as you can imagine at over £100 per pop as a tidy sum.



Only problem i see with the Dornoch attraction is a lot of them are from the US and will be making a pilgrimage to Scotland and visit other areas in the trip so i imagine St Andrews and maybe another open course. Most of the guys I.ve spoken to come over for just over a week, Im not sure they are going to come for longer as they are prob already having to make some compromise.

but for the Highlands the main draw is Dornoch pure and simple. my club is in the Highland links Marketing group, which is Castle Stuart, Nairn and Royal Dornoch. We only get a few thousand vistors compared to RD 10,000 +.

Well perhaps they'll have to put their membership fees up to cover it? Of the 3 Hobbit mentioned, I can only find Tain; £410 per year full membership, or £8 per week. Sorry, but as someone paying 4 times that for an annual membership the sympathy runs a little thin.

 

[Oddsocks]

Well perhaps they'll have to put their membership fees up to cover it? Of the 3 Hobbit mentioned, I can only find Tain; £410 per year full membership, or £8 per week. Sorry, but as someone paying 4 times that for an annual membership the sympathy runs a little thin.

Maybe a little harsh but I kinda see blues point. When you think that rain is £410 a year 7 days, and trump is about £200 per round, surely they all have their respected place in the food chain. Even if tain went up to £500 a year, that half what you would pay in the south for a total goat track as a 7 day member

The only downside I do see if for the un-educated " golf breaks " golfer who knows very little about gems in the area and solely books his/her trip around what's in a glossy mag, with 3/4 big mainstream one they will be less likely to look at the hidden gems as they can already fill their 2/3/4 day trip with the big boys

 

[Hacker Khan]

Maybe a little harsh but I kinda see blues point. When you think that rain is £410 a year 7 days, and trump is about £200 per round, surely they all have their respected place in the food chain. Even if tain went up to £500 a year, that half what you would pay in the south for a total goat track as a 7 day member

The only downside I do see if for the un-educated " golf breaks " golfer who knows very little about gems in the area and solely books his/her trip around what's in a glossy mag, with 3/4 big mainstream one they will be less likely to look at the hidden gems as they can already fill their 2/3/4 day trip with the big boys

From what you are saying this would be right up your street. Good podcasts that do try and highlight the variety of courses Scotland has to offer and encourage visitors not to just play the more famous ones. Says the person who is off to just play trump and Carnoustie next year.

http://scottishgolfpodcast.com/category/sound-from-the-home-of-golf/

 

[Junior]

Hopefully, the addition of another new 'modern' links course will attract more visitors to the area, and therefore increase the number of visitors to the smaller clubs in the area. I loved Tain & Fortrose and Rosemarkie when we visited. These are the hidden gems that sit in amongst the the grander Castle Stuart, Dornoch, Nairn type courses.

 

[Duckster]

What kind of footfall does the area get for golfing visitors?

How do the courses there fare against similar setups in other areas. Elie / Lundin / Ladybank in Fife or Western Gailes / etc.. the kind of areas where there are larger "crowd pulling" courses?

I'd assume that things like the Scottish Golf Podcast is doing a good job of educating people about other courses around the bigger ones. I know it's main aim is the American market, lets be honest they will spend a lot more than a normal UK visitor would.

Personally, I'd see anything by Mike Keiser as being a big plus to the area. He gets people to come to the out of the way, hard to get to places and spend money there. The fact that it's not going to have a club hosue should also be beneficial to the local area. Also, isn't the current owner of The Royal Golf Hotel at Dornoch one of the group behid the new course? Surely clubs can make deals with him for stay and play tours etc?

 

[DCB]

Well perhaps they'll have to put their membership fees up to cover it? Of the 3 Hobbit mentioned, I can only find Tain; £410 per year full membership, or £8 per week. Sorry, but as someone paying 4 times that for an annual membership the sympathy runs a little thin.

Well, Brora was £360 this year for a full membership. Lovely wee traditional Scottish links course, with one or two wee quirks thrown in. Until you've played it you just don't realise how special these small town clubs can be.
Golspie was £345 this year for a course that has a bit of everything, links, and almost heathlike in one small parcel of land.

Both of these clubs will rely on visitor traffic. I don't see another 'headliner' course being a challenge to them, they are looking at a different market.

As to the idea of raising the annual memberships at clubs like these, the membership rate will be set to meet what the local population can afford to pay to be a member. Paying four times for a membership South of the border is not an 'apples for apples' situation. There are a lot of factors that affect the disposable income of those who live in our more rural areas. That's why clubs appear to be a lot less expensive or have special family rates etc. It's a working mans game up here, but, depending on the work available, it can still be an expensive game.

 

[jamielaing]

Well, Brora was £360 this year for a full membership. Lovely wee traditional Scottish links course, with one or two wee quirks thrown in. Until you've played it you just don't realise how special these small town clubs can be.
Golspie was £345 this year for a course that has a bit of everything, links, and almost heathlike in one small parcel of land.

Both of these clubs will rely on visitor traffic. I don't see another 'headliner' course being a challenge to them, they are looking at a different market.

As to the idea of raising the annual memberships at clubs like these, the membership rate will be set to meet what the local population can afford to pay to be a member. Paying four times for a membership South of the border is not an 'apples for apples' situation. There are a lot of factors that affect the disposable income of those who live in our more rural areas. That's why clubs appear to be a lot less expensive or have special family rates etc. It's a working mans game up here, but, depending on the work available, it can still be an expensive game.

Agree with that fully. The clubs up that way are obviously going to be cheaper in comparison to those in larger cities. For example Tain, lovely course, scenic and a fair challenge is half of what I paid for the course in Edinburgh that didn't even compare to it. But postcode means a lot.

Look at courses such as Monktonhall- 5 minutes outside of Edinburgh's bypass. Move it inside and you could double the subs.

I know of a bowling club in the Highland area with a membership fee of £40 per year. They tried to up it to £45 and there was anarchy!

 

[DCB]

A few years back I used to holiday on Arran and usually played in the Lamlsah 2 day Open. A cracking weekend of golf and a couple of days to sober up afterwards. Lamlash had a lovely new clubhouse built around 20 years ago, mostly off the visitor tickets that come from being on a holiday island. There were attempts to raise the annual fee to look at further improvements. Those failed miserably at that time. Back then a member living on the island was paying just slightly more than a visitors fortnightly ticket and I thought the fortnightly ticket was good value !

Trouble was the local economy just couldn't afford to sustain a rise that had been proposed. Different at a wee club like Shiskine where for many years they held their AGM on the island one year and the next it was held in Glasgow. Visit the island in the depths of the off season and you'll see why.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I remember a Scottish golf conference at Gleneagles when the head of Visit Scotland started his lecture with
'There are 43 million golfers in the world and all of them wish they could play St Andrews.'

That was about 15 years ago.......there are an estimated 59 million now.

The market is there, we just have to provide the right packages.

Re the new Jura course....Midge and tick capitol of Scotland......just saying.