Tiger Woods v. Mohammad Ali

[NeilTappin]

Afternoon all,

I've just read an article on The Times website from Simon Barnes about Tiger Woods - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/simon_barnes/ and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

When it comes to choosing sporting comment from journalists or former players, I (not surprisingly) always prefer the former. It seems to me that journalists are in a better position to place a sporting event or achievement into a greater overall context.

However, it seems to me that this piece from Simon Barnes highlights the fact that he's not a golfer. That he doesn't understand the intricacy of the sport seems to shine through.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what you think about this piece and where you all stand on whether you prefer sporting analysis to come from journos or former players.

Neil

 

[Dodger]

I prefer ex players or at least Journos who play the sport to a decent standard but that doesn't always mean they can give a good analysis of what is happening at any given time.......take Ewan Murray as opposed to Gary Lineker as a prime example!!

 

[birdieman]

I'm leaning towards the journalist here, whilst I prefer golf to just about any other sport for a lot of people it isn't even a sport, it's like darts or snooker!

The following paragraph ran very true for me -

"Woods stands for the downtrodden race of corporate billionaires and each press conference is a masterpiece of blandness. Ali stood for everybody, suffered financially and in terms of sporting opportunity as a direct result, and lit up the world with his wit."

There is a lot of use of the word great in sports but Ali really was great.
Playing with a dodgy knee ain't the same as George Foreman in his prime coming straight at you trying to take your head off!

 

[NeilTappin]

Birdieman, I completely take your point about Ali. I'm not arguing against him.
This line in particular lets Barnes down - "Woods played through pain, sure, but such things are the daily staple of more vigorous sports."

This is not true. While interviewing Robert Karlsson, who played with Woods on the Saturday of the US Open last year, the Swede said that he could hear Woods's knee clicking as he was walking.

There is no way any footballer (rugby player or cricketer for that matter) would carry on in that situation. They go off as soon as there is a hint of injury - Woods played on with a broken leg, and it doesn't matter if you are walking or running, that's not good for you!

 

[birdieman]

Fair point Neil but we just don't know how bad the knee was, it certainly wasn't akin to playing with a broken leg!
Tiger's got guts aplenty, we all know that but this journalist was perhaps fed up with people harping on about the knee as if it was an extraordinary injury. Tiger could walk on it ok for 90 holes, it did cause much pain when twisted during a full shot I don't doubt.
It just seemed like it was 'milked' more than it needed to be for a story angle by journalists and golf fans.
The same story was run out at the Open with Harrington's wrist but it couldn't have been too bad cos he won too!

My ankle clicks all the time when I walk but I still manage to knock it round in fifteen over!

 

[Alex_narey]

Now now Tappers, the famous Manchester City goalkeeper, Bert Trautmann, played on with a broken neck in the 1956 FA Cup Final.

I guess they don't build them like they use to!

 

[NeilTappin]

Fair enough...

I just don't like Barnes saying that golf isn't a sport. Played properly it's pretty athletic and if you've ever watched Monty play in Asia you'll know it's enough to get a serious sweat on!

 

[HogansAlley]

Tiger cannot be considered as great a Ali as his reach is limted to golf. Yes, he has increased interest in the game but for golfing feats only. Ali is the greatest, as his reach went far beyond the ring (not his physical 'reach' obviously). However, Barnes' is article is essentially attention-seeking nonsense (he won't believe half of it himself). It's a case of write something controversial and watch people respond. If he really is of the opinion that the risk of injury is what makes a sport great he should speak to his Sunday Times colleague Hugh McIlvanney who, as far as sporting columists are concerned, is the greatest.

 

[Dodger]

Alot of folk would argue Boxing aint a sport,standing in a ring punching folk to me aint as hard a sport to master as golf is.

 

[Robobum]

Birdieman, I completely take your point about Ali. I'm not arguing against him.
This line in particular lets Barnes down - "Woods played through pain, sure, but such things are the daily staple of more vigorous sports."

This is not true. While interviewing Robert Karlsson, who played with Woods on the Saturday of the US Open last year, the Swede said that he could hear Woods's knee clicking as he was walking.

There is no way any footballer (rugby player or cricketer for that matter) would carry on in that situation. They go off as soon as there is a hint of injury - Woods played on with a broken leg, and it doesn't matter if you are walking or running, that's not good for you!

Neil, you've just criticised someone for writing a piece when they do not have a good knowledge of the game they are reporting on. Then you come out with this statement with regard to other sportsman not playing with any type of injury!?!

Now, if you have played these other sports to a half decent sort of level then you are talking rubbish. If you haven't then you are going through the same motions as the journalist you criticeised in the 1st place.

Take a look at any of the documentaries that cover any of The Lions tours, ask Curtis Davis what is was like to play for Villa with a dislocated shoulder this weekend, ask the Sth African cricket captain what it was like to bat with a broken hand to try to see out a draw??

Whilst Tiger's efforts were monumental the golf swing is a pre determined movement.....a reactionary game is whole different kettle of fish

 

[KeefG]

The following paragraph ran very true for me -

"Woods stands for the downtrodden race of corporate billionaires and each press conference is a masterpiece of blandness. Ali stood for everybody, suffered financially and in terms of sporting opportunity as a direct result, and lit up the world with his wit."

Lets not forget, Ali was plying his trade whilst blacks were still very much oppressed in the USA and he didnt stand up for everybody, he stood up for oppressed blacks all over the world.

I'd rather not get into a political argument about this however it does need bringing into context, the different time periods make a huge difference.

As far as the original story, its a well written piece for sure, however the guy is talking out of his arse, golf not a sport??? Have a word with yourself man.

I really dislike the way Mr Barnes tries to distract the seriousness of Tiger's injury, it was not a "poorly knee" - that would indicate he'd fell over and got a nasty graze. Comparing Tiger to Phil Taylor & Steven Hendry is an insult of the highest order, yes they are (were) great sportsmen, but to mention them in the same breath as Tiger is a bit silly isnt it?

 

[forefortheday]

He's spot on about Woods being bland I'll give him that much.

Doesn't compare to Ali (although he is one of my all time heroes so I'm biased) for me.

Ali made a huge impression on the entire world and whilst Woods has undoubtedly changed some attitiudes within golf he hasn't exactly had the same impact.

He currently isn't even the greatest golfer of all time nevermind sportsman.

Playing on a "broken" leg is an achievement but comparing that to what Ali went through is crazy to me.

 

[NeilTappin]

Robobum,

The point I must be failing to make is not actually about football, rugby or cricket. What I'm trying to say is that golf is a sport not a hobby.

Anyway, regarding the Woods's injury, the point here was that it was potentially career threatening but he still played on. Davis's dislocated shoulder and Smith's hand ( I remember that Austin Healy didn't play the crucial third Lion's test against Australia because he had a dead leg. That's not so tough. Any good Lions examples would come from a different age so you can't really make a comparison), would certainly not have prevented them from playing in the long-term so were well worth the calculated risk.

 

[dangermouse]

Simon Barnes considers messing about making a horse walk funny to be a sport, and golf not, so I tend to take his opinions with a pinch of salt.

Several months ago I stopped reading his nonsense, as he has a back catalogue complete with similar articles, seemingly written merely to antagonise the average sports fan, rather than to make any salient points.

 

[golfandmoregolf]

Barnes is a KNOBHEAD!!Someone should tell him tigers leg was broke!!! Not just a "bad knee"....And i prefer x players to analyise......Pete.

 

[Macster]

I dont think you can compare the 2 and possible say who was 'greatest'.

Ali was infinitely more entertaining on a comic level, a showman, and a very skillful and brave boxer.
But Woods is at the very top of a game that we all know to be very very competetive and difficult, and he has been for a long time now.

Personally, I've enjoyed him not being around to be honest tho, the media gets hung up on him and follows his every move, and I tire of watching his rather petulant at times manner.

As far as his knee is concerned, he may have a 'problem' with it, but I have lived with a seriously flawed left knee for 28yrs and doubt very much that he had as much pain as he perhaps made out on that last round of the US Open.
Knee's simply dont make you wince with pain one moment and then let you walk completely unhindered for 500yds as if nothing is wrong and without a hint of a limp.

I certainly cant see how he possibly ruptured a cruciate ligament playing Golf, they just dont snap like that without extreme force in the wrong direction.
It may be that he just wanted some time off, his wife was expecting a baby, and he'd been playing the circuit for too long, you couldnt blame him for that.

Who knows.

 

[Robobum]

Neil, I agree 100% that golf is a sport, a position it cements more each day as the players become fitter and stronger. But......

What about Tiger's injury was career threatening?? The ACL damage?? Without serious impact or colapse you can't do further damage as the ligament had become detached. There were 2?? stress fractures in his leg, whilst undoubtedly painful, hardly career threatening.

Don't get me wrong, to win as he did was quite amazing but lets not blow any more smoke up his arse!!

As for the dead leg, an impact injury will cause the muscle to bruise and bleed (dead leg). To continue playing would mean that the bleeding continued and so a much larger injury site would occur. Playing whilst it is healing (clotting) would cause the injury site to bleed again, repeating this without the site fully healing would eventually cause irrepairable muscle damage. Bit tougher than you think!!

 

[viscount17]

there is far too much hyperbole in sports journalism no matter what the source.

'brave' isn't taking on a risky shot into a well bunkered green, nor is it standing in a ring trading punches for wads of cash. Brave is a squaddie in downtown Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[Herbie]

Ali,a great man, great sportsman, great heart, very brave,wore his heart on his sleeve and his true charactor in the open.When I say brave, I do not refer to his exploits in the ring though he did fight in an era where some of this worlds greatest fighters ever, came to play, no, I refer to his bravery to fight a cause and a belief in support of others against a government and a world that would have him in prison for life if they could and some who would kill him if they could.

Tiger,a kid encouraged or pushed by his dad into becomming a great golfer, his success from his skill creates an icon whom nobody really knows other than those closest, a coporate nanny catering his every wish or need and often things he doesnt need and public support of a false god who is really nothing more than a corporate slave(now theres a word Tiger might not wish to read), no matter how great a golfer he may become, is or was.

Personally I dont know much about Tiger in reality, all the sanctioned autobiographies on the earth about him will never let him out. Ali never pulled a punch in the ring or out of it often at his own expense and I know more about him than I will ever know about Tiger which is why I love this journo's take on things, though its an honesty that wont do him many favours with some sectors.

I love golf and I have favorites, but would I measure any golfer against Ali? ...Not in a million years.

 

[KeefG]

I certainly cant see how he possibly ruptured a cruciate ligament playing Golf, they just dont snap like that without extreme force in the wrong direction.
It may be that he just wanted some time off, his wife was expecting a baby, and he'd been playing the circuit for too long, you couldnt blame him for that.

Who knows.

This is priceless!! So we now go from Tiger winning a major on pretty much one leg, to he had no injury and just wanted an excuse to spend a little quality time with her indoors!

You question how the ligament could snap....do yourself a favour and watch some of Sky's 'swingvision' from the last decade of Tiger's swing and then ask yourself the same question.