Suspension of search.....

[Imurg]

This came up today...

Fragger hit a ball into some thick rough from the tee. A provo was played and we got to the area and began a search. After a couple of minutes a solo player appeared on the tee and we called him through. As we were in the line of fire should he slice we stopped searching to keep an eye on the stroke. As soon as we realised the ball wasn't going anywhere near us we continued.
All in all I reckon we waited about 30 seconds.
Now, as it happens, we couldn't find the ball, but would we have been able to add those 30 seconds onto the search time - as we'd suspended the search for potential safety reasons? If we'd found the ball after 5 minutes and 10 seconds, say, would Fragger have been able to play it?

The Rules seem pretty firm on the 5 minutes.........

 

[North Mimms]

Mmm... good question.
Fairness makes me think that since you are allowed to search for 5 minutes, you should "stop the clock" while waiting for other chap to play.
Suspect the real rules say otherwise

 

[rosecott]

I believe the only occasion on which you can suspend your search and resume after a break is when play has been officially suspended. In the normal course events, it's 5 minutes from the time you start searching.

 

[duncan mackie]

I believe the only occasion on which you can suspend your search and resume after a break is when play has been officially suspended. In the normal course events, it's 5 minutes from the time you start searching.

yep - whilst there are things that can interrupt the 5 mins (play of a wrong ball) in general once you start the clock isn't going to stop....

 

[connor]

Just out of interest does someone stand there with a stop watch for an exact timing?

 

[CMAC]

I've never seen anyone start timing or even looking at their watch when they get to where their ball might be, I've played in medals up to 36 hole scratch comps with Walker cup guys and NO-ONE does this........

 

[palindromicbob]

North Mimms has it spot on. I think equity would come into this. Equity is a decision that is fair under the rules the of golf.

Everyone had moved away from the area where the ball was thought to lie and the search had stopped. You were all following etiquette when the search stopped. I'd say the only fair decision is that the clock had been stopped and starts again when the search resumes.

Had the 5mins 10 seconds situation you mention above arose and someone in the group called on it I'd tell them to remove the stick they had so I could replace it with what ever club I could get into my hand first.

 

[Colin L]

As I see it, the obstacle to applying equity to this is that Rule 1-4 which allows for equity to be the basis of a ruling, is specifically for occasions in which "a point in dispute is not covered by the Rules". In this instance there is both a Definition and an applicable Rule (27-1c). The only related Decision is the one concerning suspension of play. So in the absence of any exception being made for allowing players to play through, the Rule has to be applied - which is, I expect, why both Rosecott and Duncan have said the five minutes cannot be interrupted for the playing through.

 

[bobmac]

So you are playing a short dogleg left with the 'corner' where your ball is lost being about 180 yards from the tee.
After searching for your ball for 2 minutes, you call the following player/group through and move across to the opposite rough for safety.
The group behind hit poor tee shots and takes them 5 minutes so get all their balls over the corner before you can safely return to your search. As far as I am concerned, you still have 3 mins left to find your ball.

If my opposition told me I had used up my 5 mins before I got back to resume my search, I would never play golf with that person again.

 

[Colin L]

As far as I am concerned, you still have 3 mins left to find your ball.

If my opposition told me I had used up my 5 mins before I got back to resume my search, I would never play golf with that person again.

Fine in a bounce game, but in a competition the individual can't decide which rules to apply and which to ignore and if your opponent correctly insists on a rule being applied it would be a bit unfair to ostracise him for it. Put yourself in the position of seeing a fellow competitor putting to a couple of inches from the hole and picking his ball up as a "gimme". Would you not point out that he needs to hole out? And would you not be a bit taken aback if he refused ever to play with you again as a result? Applying the rules in competition can't be a pick and mix arrangement whereas what you do in informal games is entirely up to you and the people you are playing with. Mind you, I reckon it would be a strange bounce game where anyone even looked at their watch when searching for a ball.

As far as I can see, interrupting a search to let a game through is not sanctioned in the rules - if it is, I'd be pleased to know what I've overlooked.

 

[bobmac]

As far as I can see, interrupting a search to let a game through is not sanctioned in the rules - if it is, I'd be pleased to know what I've overlooked.

I didn't say it was 'sanctioned in the rules'

And I would say there's a big difference between not holing out in a medal and not being allowed to look for your ball for 5 minutes.

 

[Imurg]

So you are playing a short dogleg left with the 'corner' where your ball is lost being about 180 yards from the tee.
After searching for your ball for 2 minutes, you call the following player/group through and move across to the opposite rough for safety.

This is a perfect example of what I'm questioning.
In this situation you are in direct line with tee shots. You have to let the group behind through so do you keep on searching and hope that a call of Fore comes before your skull is cracked by a ProV1 or do you stop, wait for the shot(s) to be played and then continue.
Safety has to come first and in a situation like this, if the rule is that you can't "stop the clock" until you resume the search then the rule is a poor one.

 

[Colin L]

Bobmac. I agree there is a big difference. One is allowed in the Rules and other isn't.

I suppose the hard answer to the safety point is that if it is unsafe to do so, you don't wave the following game through

 

[bobmac]

Safety has to come first and in a situation like this, if the rule is that you can't "stop the clock" until you resume the search then the rule is a poor one.

Especially when you've been standing on the opposite side of the fairway for 3 minutes waiting for the following group to play through and your opposition inform you your 5 mins are up and you have to go back to the tee and play again.

 

[Twire]

I would add the time on. The rules state you have 5 minutes to search for your ball, if you stop searching and move away for safty reasons then surely you have not used your 5 minutes SEARCH time.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I think the difficulty here is how the 5 minute search period is applied in the definition of lost ball.

"A ball is deemed “lost” if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it;"

So strictly speaking you must find the ball within 5 minutes of when you begun the search. As others have said there is no provision to "stop the clock" apart from if play is suspended.

Whilst there may be other "common sense" situations when the search period may be interupted there seems to be no other provision or guidance in the Rules for the search period to be suspended. Might be worth an e-mail to the R&A to clarify the position if search has to be suspended for safety reasons while other players play through.

 

[JustOne]

Unless I was on the Tour I'd move aside and allow my opponent to continue searching after the following group has played through.


... out of interest what happens on a call up hole?

 

[bobmac]

Might be worth an e-mail to the R&A to clarify the position if search has to be suspended for safety reasons while other players play through.

That was my thinking too. You suspend play while you get out of the road and resume play once the following group play through.
But will the rules experts allow you so suspend your own game for safety reasons ?

 

[Colin L]

Just exploring a thought. If for safety reasons you have to go across to the other side of the fairway to let the following game through, might it be possible that it would delay play less to complete the other 3 minutes of searching and move on? It might not look that way to the game behind, but maybe could it be the case?

Still maintaining the distinction between what you might do in an informal bounce game and what you have to to in competition, the "common sense" approach is just not available in the latter. It's clear from the Definition and Rule 27-1c that there is no such option . The Decision that allows an interruption for suspension of play refers to a period when play has stopped. Play has not stopped during the time you have stepped aside to let a game play through so the sand in the 5 minute egg timer keeps flowing.

By the way, I find it hard enough to know, understand and apply the Rules. I don't do justifying them.

 

[duncan mackie]

North Mimms has it spot on. I think equity would come into this. Equity is a decision that is fair under the rules the of golf.

just as an aside because this crops up from time to time -

equity is not about any concept of fairness - a ruling in equity is one that is consistent with other situations that have been ruled on. The fairness in this is consistency not 'fairness'.

If you think all the rules are fair - just look at the situation being discussed here!