Start the downswing from the ground up?

[CMAC]

Bob commented on my swing a few days back:

[video=youtube;HXPrPa047Eg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXPrPa047Eg[/video]

My swing is very flat. My backswing hasn't changed in a few years, but I've had to put an awful lot of time and effort into getting to the ball from the inside.

If I rotated everything from the top hard, I would be hitting a flat pull to the left.

I know, I've been there

am I the only one watching that and screaming HIT IT! for the first 35 seconds:ears:

Gareth, that looks like you are starting the downswing from the top....or was that the point of showing the vid?

 

[bobmac]

the weight has to get back into lead side leg movement which lowers the arms/club right shoulder vertically

How does moving the weight sideways make the arms, club and shoulder drop?

 

[One Planer]

am I the only one watching that and screaming HIT IT! for the first 35 seconds:ears:

Gareth, that looks like you are starting the downswing from the top....or was that the point of showing the vid?

Just to evidence a flat swing pal. Nothing more.



.... And if you watch close my left hip goes first :ears:

 

[CMAC]

Just to evidence a flat swing pal. Nothing more.



.... And if you watch close my left hip goes first :ears:

I did, and I would disagree, however, if it works repeatedly for you that's all that matters.

 

[the_coach]

How does moving the weight sideways make the arms, club and shoulder drop?

in a good transition first move in the lower body - the weight pressure moves downwards into the lead leg, not ..... sideways.

& the downwards weight pressure into the ground lines up the joints in the lead leg to provide the resistance needed to rotate & clear the left hip both fully & quickly.

(as explained in the 'long' earlier not so 'simple' version .... often times the trouble with distilling written information into 'simple' something important gets omitted that wouldn't in a hands on, one to one lesson .... rotating the hip first when the weight is still trailside isn't going to be helpful any)

 

[bobmac]

in a good transition first move in the lower body - the weight pressure moves downwards into the lead leg, not ..... sideways.

& the downwards weight pressure into the ground lines up the joints in the lead leg to provide the resistance needed to rotate & clear the left hip both fully & quickly.

(as explained in the 'long' earlier not so 'simple' version .... often times the trouble with distilling written information into 'simple' something important gets omitted that wouldn't in a hands on, one to one lesson .... rotating the hip first when the weight is still trailside isn't going to be helpful any)

What I was asking was how does getting the weight into the lead leg drop the arms, club and shoulder?

 

[the_coach]

going back to the first few lines of my original contribution (which wasn't 'simple' enough it seemed given 2 later replies)

"the commonality is in most efficient swing motions the transition move in the lower body starts before backswing reaches it's apex, dissociation of movement between the pelvic girdle & spine" - the reason why the back can remain 'looking' to target momentarily while the COP then swing direction changes.

as it's a continuous motion the arms & upper body still in the final motion 'up' to the apex.

the lower body's opposite motion of the weight pressure downwards into the lead leg to provide the stability for the rotation, also creates a small pull downwards on the arms/club right shoulder after which gravity & rotation take over.

 

[bobmac]

the transition move in the lower body starts before backswing reaches it's apex,

So if the weight is moving down into the lead foot while the arms are still swinging back and up, how can that cause the arms, club and shoulders to drop and not turn as the lower half starts to turn. Bare in mind we are talking about mid to high handicaps here.

Wouldn't it be simpler for the average golfer who has a slice to follow my advice about keeping the shoulders square as long as he/she can?

 

[rickg]

Bob...your opening post was "almost" perfect :rofl:

 

[bobmac]

Bob...your opening post was "almost" perfect :rofl:

What a putz

 

[the_coach]

So if the weight is moving down into the lead foot while the arms are still swinging back and up, how can that cause the arms, club and shoulders to drop and not turn as the lower half starts to turn. Bare in mind we are talking about mid to high handicaps here.

Wouldn't it be simpler for the average golfer who has a slice to follow my advice about keeping the shoulders square as long as he/she can?

if they've transferred their weight before they turn & clear the lead hip.

 

[bobmac]

if they've transferred their weight before they turn & clear the lead hip.

But as they're transferring their weight, their arms and club are still going up.?

Unless you mean the first part of the transition where the weight is moving down into the front foot, the arms are still going up, then the second part of the transition when the weight is transferred and the left side turns and clears out of the way, then the hands drop? You must know some pretty talented mid to high handicappers with great timing.

I repeat the question..........
"Wouldn't it be simpler for the average golfer who has a slice to follow my advice about keeping the shoulders square as long as he/she can?"

 

[jpjeffery]

am I the only one watching that and screaming HIT IT! for the first 35 seconds:ears:

No.

 

[the_coach]

I repeat the question..........
"Wouldn't it be simpler for the average golfer who has a slice to follow my advice about keeping the shoulders square as long as he/she can?"

happy to repeat the answer ..... not if from your top position you just turn/rotate the hips left while the weight is still trailside.

 

[Foxholer]

Guys.
Can I ask you both if you would give the same advice as you are giving here to.....

A stable 15 to 18-handicapper (Index 12-15 for the_coach) who is looking to ease his slice and improve a bit but isn't a great practicer.
A rapidly improving golfer who is happy to dedicate time to practice in order to reach his potential.
An elite/college golfer
A Junior/flexible twenty-something; a (stiffening) Senior who has been playing for 40 years.
A casual member who just wants a 'quick fix/magic move' solution.

Would your approach to the the lesson(s) be different?

Btw. Without getting into the specific sequencing details, does the fact that the shoulders are kept 'still' (wherever they are pointing) for as long as possible, not mean that the lower body is more likely to have been engaged and done its good work before the upper body takes over?

 

[Maninblack4612]

Just to evidence a flat swing pal. Nothing more.

To me, that's not a flat swing, it's a perfect one plane top of swing position. Jim Hardy's advice from this position is to turn the upper body hard towards the hole. No mention of the hips at all. (and Bob, I know this is digressing from your original post. Would be interested to know if you agreed that there are two fundamental & different ways of swinging the club. Should I start a new thread?)

 

[bobmac]

happy to repeat the answer ..... not if from your top position you just turn/rotate the hips left while the weight is still trailside.

No-one said anything about keeping the weight on the back foot

Guys.
Can I ask you both if you would give the same advice as you are giving here to.....

A stable 15 to 18-handicapper (Index 12-15 for the_coach) who is looking to ease his slice and improve a bit but isn't a great practicer.
A rapidly improving golfer who is happy to dedicate time to practice in order to reach his potential.
An elite/college golfer
A Junior/flexible twenty-something; a (stiffening) Senior who has been playing for 40 years.
A casual member who just wants a 'quick fix/magic move' solution.

Would your approach to the the lesson(s) be different?

Most definitely
As there's not many elite golfers on here with a big slice, I chose to imagine I was talking to the likes of Smiffy or RickG

 

[bobmac]

To me, that's not a flat swing, it's a perfect one plane top of swing position. Jim Hardy's advice from this position is to turn the upper body hard towards the hole. No mention of the hips at all. (and Bob, I know this is digressing from your original post. Would be interested to know if you agreed that there are two fundamental & different ways of swinging the club. Should I start a new thread?)

Yes please.
This was supposed to be thread about a simple swing thought that would help the golfer with a slice

 

[tsped83]

I've tried to keep up with this thread in the interest of pickling up a nugget of helpful information, but wow, my brain is pickled. I cannot for the life of me follow all the talk about hips/shoulders/knees and toes doing XYZ. It amazes me how anyone can hit the ball thinking about that kind of stuff. Bonkers.

Bob, appreciate the effort with the simple tips, everything else that followed lost me. And my interest.

 

[sev112]

It's a great piece of advice and it's in all the books so it must be right.
But is it implemented correctly?
The golfer has a great backswing up to the top and thinks, 'start the downswing from the ground up'. So the lower half starts first, they think the upper half goes next, finally the arms and club.
What often happens though is the lower half starts the downswing but the shoulders follow at the same time.
Try this at home/office/train platform......
Pretend you have a club in your hand and swing to the top then stop.
Without moving anything else, slowly turn your hips. Where do your hands go? Outside the line.
Now try the same exercise again but this time as your start turning your lower half, keep your shoulders pointing to the right as long as you can (for right handers)
Now you will feel how the lower half goes first then the top half a fraction later.

I think the advice 'Start the downswing from the ground up' is good but it's poor implementation is the cause of many a golfers slicing woes.

Food for thought i hope

The nugget in here, and it applies to various aspects of the swing (as well as many other sports, skiing as an example, but raquet sports, goal kicking in rugby etc)

And that is the "without moving anything else" statement
When coaches and pros try and help us with swing faults, they know what they want us to fix, but we don't. So when they say "move x". We end up moving the connected y, z, a and b as well.
And that is where human beings get in the way of the golf club doing what it was designed to do. Again, the same thing happens in other sports,
But don't read this to mean "keep everything else rigid" - you have to remain flexed so that the parts of your body can work together effciently

Great piece of advice Bob

If you want a different analogy - look at good dancers on strictly : a good dancer moves the various parts of their body independently. put an amateur up there and all the parts are too rigidly joined together and they look stiff.

So next time on the tee, to avoid your slice, imagine you are Pasha or Kristina ...
If your golf doesn't improve it will do wonders for your hips