Start the downswing from the ground up?

[bobmac]

It's a great piece of advice and it's in all the books so it must be right.
But is it implemented correctly?
The golfer has a great backswing up to the top and thinks, 'start the downswing from the ground up'. So the lower half starts first, they think the upper half goes next, finally the arms and club.
What often happens though is the lower half starts the downswing but the shoulders follow at the same time.
Try this at home/office/train platform......
Pretend you have a club in your hand and swing to the top then stop.
Without moving anything else, slowly turn your hips. Where do your hands go? Outside the line.
Now try the same exercise again but this time as your start turning your lower half, keep your shoulders pointing to the right as long as you can (for right handers)
Now you will feel how the lower half goes first then the top half a fraction later.

I think the advice 'Start the downswing from the ground up' is good but it's poor implementation is the cause of many a golfers slicing woes.

Food for thought i hope

 

[Val]

Interesting, need to try this sometime if I ever remember.

 

[One Planer]

Excellent post Bob :thup:

For me, a lot of the issue you state, comes from the player wanting to hit the ball from the outset. Effectively, they may start the swing from the ground, but there desire to 'hit' brings the arms and shoulders into play.

This is something I've struggled with for a while but now have to much more in check.

I now think more about keeping my upper half passive while I start from the ground.

 

[SocketRocket]

Interesting, need to try this sometime if I ever remember.

How about on the train platform just before the little red dots appear on your chest

 

[Val]

How about on the train platform just before the little red dots appear on your chest

I would if i ever went for a train

 

[Maninblack4612]

That's interesting and is basically the way Jim Hardy describes how to start the downswing in a swing where the shoulders rotate on a shallower plane to the arms ( "two plane swing", in his terms). Where the shoulders & arms rotate on the same plane ("one plane swing") he says the downswing should be started by turning the upper body hard towards the hole & that, executed properly, you cannot come over the top doing this. One of the basics of his teaching is that the first downswing move is different, depending on which type of swing you've got. Are you familiar with his teaching? Matt Kuchar is one of his pupils, as was Peter Jacobsen, one of the oldest players to win a PGA event. He changed from two plane to one plane& never looked back.

 

[Jensen]

That's interesting and is basically the way Jim Hardy describes how to start the downswing in a swing where the shoulders rotate on a shallower plane to the arms ( "two plane swing", in his terms). Where the shoulders & arms rotate on the same plane ("one plane swing") he says the downswing should be started by turning the upper body hard towards the hole & that, executed properly, you cannot come over the top doing this. One of the basics of his teaching is that the first downswing move is different, depending on which type of swing you've got. Are you familiar with his teaching? Matt Kuchar is one of his pupils, as was Peter Jacobsen, one of the oldest players to win a PGA event. He changed from two plane to one plane& never looked back.

Excellent point Maninblack, as a fellow disciple of Jim Hardy and Plane Truth I concur.

 

[Foxholer]

Here's Pete Cowen's take on it....

http://shorelinebill.com/2013/09/03/henrik-stensons-coach-pete-cowans-spiral-staircase/

 

[Evesdad]

This sounds like me, I try to start with the lower half but the shoukders always seem to follow, it's something I'm reslly working on.

 

[the_coach]

what happens in transition that moment when the swing direction of the club appears to pause & the body's motion changes direction. is the same in 99.9% of PGA Tour Pro's swing motions, they will though have differing 'feels' of how they achieve a good sound transition.
{the commonality is in most efficient swing motions the transition move in the lower body starts before backswing reaches it's apex, dissociation of movement between the pelvic girdle & spine}

assuming a good turn to the top (not sway), still in posture angles with vertical height steady.

to get that dissociation between the rotation of the hips & the rotation of the upper body in transition the first motion needs to be some weight pressure into the lead leg, lead thigh/knee then re-rotates back to target this puts the joints of the lead leg back inline so the leg can provide resistance for the swing to turn around the lead hip socket.

in a face on view of the swing & from the outside of the lead leg imagine there's a vertical 'line' going up to hip height.

at address set-up there will/should be a small gap between the lead hip & that line.

in the turn to the top (not sway) the gap between the lead hip & the line will widen some. (if from this point at the top of the backswing the lead hip was just rotated/turned & cleared the swing motion would be is some difficulty)

as the hands approach shoulder high press some weight into the lead foot (as this happens it's important the pelvic angle is maintained) the lead thigh will move back in line as it does so it will take the lead hip upto & touching the line, (this small bump & sit motion will also bring the arms club trail shoulder downwards not outwards, OTT) then the lead hip rotates/turns & clears against the resistance of the lead leg, head stays back of ball as hands lead a forwards leaning shaft then clubhead through impact.

imagine the same above sequence looking at a dtl view of the swing.

at address imagine a the vertical line drawn from hip height to the ground against the butt.

as a sound backswing is made the trail front pants pocket turns towards that line (not sways away from target) & the back trail pants pocket turns behind the line towards target - at no point from address to the top of the backswing is there any gap between the butt & the line.

at transition (that weight pressure into the lead leg causing the little ways bump to target) from the dtl view the butt again stays on the line - as in the previous face on view this move closes the gap to between lead hip & the other line to close up.

then the rotation/turn of the lead hip clearing means from the dtl view we see the pants lead back pocket turn through the line the butt has been on - there has been no gap between the butt & line all the ways from address to swing motions finish.

if anyone interested enough (still awake) to see footage to have visuals to look at post below, if so I'll post them in the experts section.

 

[garyinderry]

Where the shoulders & arms rotate on the same plane ("one plane swing") he says the downswing should be started by turning the upper body hard towards the hole & that, executed properly, you cannot come over the top doing this.

What does this mean? I don't get it!

 

[bobmac]

And there's me trying to keep things simple

 

[backwoodsman]

And there's me trying to keep things simple

As always indeed. But not sure I want to try it at the train station! My office perhaps.

But you've been on here long enough to know that as always, there's someone wanting to put in an extra tanner's worth in.

 

[Maninblack4612]

What does this mean? I don't get it!

It's the difference between the swings of, say, Bubba & Matt Kuchar, who look as if they're playing different games. Bubba's arms are well above the shoulder at the top, having swung on a much steeper plane than the shoulders. Matt's arms & shoulders are on the same plane. If Bubba rotated his upper body too fast from the top hed come "over the top" Matt, according to Jim Hardy, can't do that because his shoulders & arms are on the same plane.

 

[bobmac]

The whole point of this thread was to help those golfers who slice by giving them a simple, easy to understand, easy to use swing thought they can take to the range and indeed the course.
Keep your shoulders pointing at the target as long as you can
That's it.
If you can do that, you will not throw at the top and you will not be out to in through impact.
Here's Tiger doing just as I have suggested. Note how his hips have cleared and are pointing well left of the target while his shoulders are still square.

Real and feel is a pain sometimes

 

[garyinderry]

It's the difference between the swings of, say, Bubba & Matt Kuchar, who look as if they're playing different games. Bubba's arms are well above the shoulder at the top, having swung on a much steeper plane than the shoulders. Matt's arms & shoulders are on the same plane. If Bubba rotated his upper body too fast from the top hed come "over the top" Matt, according to Jim Hardy, can't do that because his shoulders & arms are on the same plane.

View attachment 14362

Do you swing like matt kutchar? out of the two I swing a lot more like matt and I can tell you its so easy to swing OTT from that position.

 

[One Planer]

Do you swing like matt kutchar? out of the two I swing a lot more like matt and I can tell you its so easy to swing OTT from that position.

Amen brother :clap:

 

[garyinderry]

If I tuned my body hard from that positing it would be the definition of OTT.


In fact, that was exactly my swing about 5years ago. Mahossive slices OTT

 

[One Planer]

If I tuned my body hard from that positing it would be the definition of OTT.


In fact, that was exactly my swing about 5years ago. Mahossive slices OTT

Bob commented on my swing a few days back:

[video=youtube;HXPrPa047Eg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXPrPa047Eg[/video]

My swing is very flat. My backswing hasn't changed in a few years, but I've had to put an awful lot of time and effort into getting to the ball from the inside.

If I rotated everything from the top hard, I would be hitting a flat pull to the left.

I know, I've been there

 

[the_coach]

mornin from a bright sunny nyc.

transition simples .. having got to the top in good order .... don't rotate anything first off

first the weight has to get back into lead side leg movement which lowers the arms/club right shoulder vertically

then rotate the hips which then rotates the abs ... chest ...shoulders.... (....thigh bone connected to the hip bone...)