Stack & Tilt Brainwashing

[stevek1969]

Recently how many post are on here about the above subject is Justone trying to brainwash everyone into thinking this is the way to go swing wise?.

Up until recently i'd never heard of it,what are the benefits of it if any?, when i learned to play i stood and swung the club if you hit it all well and good, i learnt to play golf from my dad who played at Carnoustie it was about keeping the ball down under the wind as most Scots were taught that way i would have thought.

Interested to hear thoughts on what the benefits are of Stack & Tilt against a conventional ( if such a thing exists ) swing.

 

[Monty_Brown]

For me the key benefit is understanding the swing better. Every move has a reason and a benefit. There's no waffle and it's all explained according to the laws of physics, rather than repeating accepted wisdoms that turn out to be wrong.

Benefits: consistent ball shape (draw), better ball striking, easily repeatable moves in the swing.

 

[DavidO]

For me the key benefit is understanding the swing better. Every move has a reason and a benefit. There's no waffle and it's all explained according to the laws of physics, rather than repeating accepted wisdoms that turn out to be wrong.

Benefits: consistent ball shape (draw), better ball striking, easily repeatable moves in the swing.

Is buying the book the best way to learn? Or can you recommend a good website?

Thanks.

 

[bobmac]

There are several issues I have with s&t

1. It assumes too much
2. It prays on the uneducated
3. There is nowhere you can go to learn how to teach s&t so when you are looking for someone to teach it, you don't know what you're going to get.
4. If you teach yourself from the book, do you know what to change first?

Basically, one of the main points is the weight shift is different.
The s&t experts tell us that the vast majority of conventional golfers have a huge sway on the backswing which is clearly wrong.
Tilting your shoulders will happen naturally if you keep in your posture.

For those of you who have swapped and are having success, is it not possible that your ball striking has improved just because you're now simply keeping yourself more centred?

As I understand, s&t was developed over 10 years ago and what I'd like to know is if it's so good, why isn't the tour full of players using it and winning week in week out?

I also object strongly being told I'm teaching a wrong method, a method that doesn't work.
Again, wrong.

And finally, my concern is that the damage it can do to a self taught player. Without supervision, it can lead to problems in the future with possible back problems and reverse pivots.

If you try it and it helps you enjoy your golf, great... but dont tell me it's the only way to swing and all other swings are wrong.

Would I teach s&t ?

No.

 

[timchump]

I think Justone must be on some sort of commission deal with Mr Bennett & Plummer?

I've bought the book, read it over the chistmas holidays, it is very well written, laid out, probably one of the best golf teaching books i've read. I can buy in to the thought process behind the swing.

However, for me i don't think i'll change, ive spent a lot of time developing my conventional style, i don't really want to backwards to go forwards again.
Besides a lot of people do just fine with the conventional style, there is nothing wrong with it, as long as you understand the fundamentals

With swings like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC0EHipdAtY a thing of beauty, that doesn't abide by the S & T fundamentals, its very persausuve to me not to think S& T as a brilliant revoltionary style.
The promo video for stack & tilt 2.0 made me chuckle i don't think i have ever seen soo many "tour pros" at one time that ive never heard of, and its interesting that a number of the pros such as Aaron Badly are no longer sticking with it.

It will be interesting to see whether Stack & Tilt stands the test of time?



PS i realise im not a tour pro, i can dream.

 

[bunkered]

Anybody looking for stuff on the golfswing google Dan Whittaker golf, some really good tips on his site, dont think its S&T.

 

[Phil2511]

There are several issues I have with s&t

1. It assumes too much
2. It prays on the uneducated
3. There is nowhere you can go to learn how to teach s&t so when you are looking for someone to teach it, you don't know what you're going to get.
4. If you teach yourself from the book, do you know what to change first?

Basically, one of the main points is the weight shift is different.
The s&t experts tell us that the vast majority of conventional golfers have a huge sway on the backswing which is clearly wrong.
Tilting your shoulders will happen naturally if you keep in your posture.

For those of you who have swapped and are having success, is it not possible that your ball striking has improved just because you're now simply keeping yourself more centred?

As I understand, s&t was developed over 10 years ago and what I'd like to know is if it's so good, why isn't the tour full of players using it and winning week in week out?

I also object strongly being told I'm teaching a wrong method, a method that doesn't work.
Again, wrong.

And finally, my concern is that the damage it can do to a self taught player. Without supervision, it can lead to problems in the future with possible back problems and reverse pivots.

If you try it and it helps you enjoy your golf, great... but dont tell me it's the only way to swing and all other swings are wrong.

Would I teach s&t ?

No.

I know 4 pros and 3 assistants personally and they all think the same as yourself Bob.

I also know 2 guys who went for S&T lessons and they all came away from the coach thinking great things but after plenty of practicing returned to the normal way. These guys are 2 and 4 hcap. The 2 hcap had me try out what he was being taught and alot of it made sense but no moreso than my normal pro teaches me. He bases each person individually and himself gets coaching from Butch Harmon as he felt that he had the same attitude to teaching as Butch does. Plus he was Michael Bannons assistant as well as being a juvenile member of Holywood when Michael was pro there.
My pro has a +5 and +4 hcappers under his instruction and has coached some Irish Seniors 1 of which has 23 wins and also has played in the Ryder Cup back in his younger days and in the 2006 Ryder Cup was one of Ian Woosnams vice Captains.

So if it's good enough for those guys it's good enough for me lol I believe if you get the correct instruction and put in the practice you will be able to gain the consistency and hit the draw and strike the ball well and easily repeat the moves. If I can do it then anyone can because a year ago I was a complete hacker that was slicing all over the show constantly hitting 2 balls off every tee with my driver and now I have a draw of approx 240yds and can get the ball to go to the area I want instead of a hit and a hope shot.

But as they say each to their own. Everyone likes different things and if it works for them then why not I suppose. But personally I'm happy with the so called normal way.

 

[DelB]

Personally, I'm fed up reading about it. There are now four or five threads on the subject. No need!

 

[Robobum]

I agree entirely with Bob and have asked the question repeatedly in previous S&T threads.............if it is such a holy grail, why is it not on tour winning things???

It was at that stage when it then became "elements" of S&T....blah, blah.

If it works for you and makes you feel you can get better then great, but by using the (supposedly) flawed swing method and next to none pratcice, I can shoot gross rounds in the 60s regularly and have had a cat 1 h'cap for 6 years and counting.

 

[Ethan]

When S&T was first launched, it was an all or nothing method. The set up and backswing put the club in places where certain additional moves on the downswing had to happen, or it wouldn't work.

Now it seems like the method has softened to the point where anyone who stays somewhat centred over the ball is claimed by the adherents to be using S&T principles.

Sounds to me like the S&T marketing department realised their all conquering first plan wasn't working and recast it to get more mileage out of it.

 

[DCB]

As someone who learnt the game the same way as SteveK the OP, I don't see what all the fuss is about. We grew up learning to swing the club in a simple manner and to strike down on the ball cleanly to keep it down and as Steve says under the wind. Simple game, play your shot, walk after it and hit it again.

Over the years things have changed in the way the golf swing has been taught by PGA Pros and with the wall to wall golf coverage on TV more people are aware ( or think they are) of the intricacies of the golf swing. The Juniors at my club all swing the club in a totally different manner to that which I grew up swinging. Are they better than we were ? Possibly, but possibly not. When I started, I even had a couple of hickory shafted clubs in the bag. You had to have a very deliberate swing to get the best out of them I can tell you.

I've been for lessons, some serious attempts at redefining my swing, but what I grew up with is ingrained in there and comes to the fore too easily. It's just a case of making best use of what you've got.

Stack and Tilt is the current buzz phrase and methodology, will it last ? who knows. There have been several other ideas over the years that have come and gone. Look at the current method for playing bunker shots, does that make the old school wrong ? It's what works for YOU that's important, not what works for some 'guru' in Florida. He's only pushing it to make a buck or two. What happened to David Leadbetter ? remember all his videos and training books 15-20 years back, you hardly hear of him now. maybe his thoughts on the swing are too old hat now.

Just get out there and play the game as best you can and enjoy yourself.

rant over ;-)

 

[Mattyboy]

Personally, I dont have a problem with it. Its not for many but I feel that if an individual can indentify a weakness, adopting certain parts could help.

Previously, whilst I was having lessons, three faults were identified.
1) My hands started on the outside
2) My shoulder turn was too flat
3) I swayed off of the ball

These three things are easily cured by adopting certain S&T principles.

We all know that theres more than one way to swing a golf club.

 

[MadAdey]

I think this could just be another crack pot theory from people trying to make a name for themselves in the world of golf coaching. I have mentioned before the wonderful VHS tapes I have with Dalton Mcreary's straighter shooting golf on. Did it work??? Did it heckers like. 3 months implementing it 6 months getting rid of it. I see things about certain tour players using stack and tilt method. Well watch the videos of their swings. They may have some parts of their swing that look like S&T but it is not what you would call a S&T from what I have seen.

I think I will stick with what I have already got. It appeared to work for the likes of Hogan, Palmer, Player, Nichlaus, Ballesteros, Faldo, Woods, Els, just to name a few that I am sure do not use the full S&T method.

 

[chrisd]

I quite understand Bob's point of view. It is not a universally accepted panacea for all golf ills and can, in itself create swing problems if you are self teaching, but, I think many of us have learned to be more centered and turn better through the swing, rather than a sway, as a result of S & T and I certainly stike the ball better these days.

My brother in law has back problems and sciatica, he is a comfortable 6 handicap and has a traditonal load of the right side before the downswing but every so often can't push/pull through as his right leg collapses and he hits 12" behind the ball - we worked on the centering and he now doesn't have the collapse and the other day he started his round birdie, par, birdie, birdie, birdie, birdie so I would argue that certain elements of S & T can work but to commit to it in full without proper guidance is not necessarily a great idea

 

[NWJocko]

These three things are easily cured by adopting certain S&T principles.

Is staying centred over the ball a S&T principle or just a principle of a good golf swing though?

I don't know as much as most on here about it all but when I see people mention "S&T principles" they are pretty much the same principles as any good golf swing needs to have.

 

[Piece]

I do object to the way that S&T is currently being sold as the golf swing 'answer'. It isn't. It's just another way of swinging the club that works for some and not for others.

 

[stevek1969]

Guys thanks for the very interesting replies,i spoke with the pro at my course about it and he went silent and changed the subject he the said he wouldn't teach its ruined more swings than helped.

I will buy the book as a general interest read but don't think i'll try it as i'm struggling to sort out the swing that i have just now.

One question ,why is a draw the shot the occurs with this swing ?

 

[Mattyboy]

Is staying centred over the ball a S&T principle or just a principle of a good golf swing though?

I don't know as much as most on here about it all but when I see people mention "S&T principles" they are pretty much the same principles as any good golf swing needs to have.

I agree totally - e.g. having your right elbow 'tucked in' was a Leadbetter theory (and not a new one).

 

[sawtooth]

Its not brainwashing you have a choice whether to read the threads or not. What works for you may not work for someone else and vice-versa.

Personally I think this forum all the better for having debate on S&T who knows one day I might give it a go myself. Until then I will keep an open mind.

 

[Monty_Brown]

Don't forget that Bennett and Plummer came up with the S and T swing pattern by studying existing swings and identifying some of the most common moves and positions that made them effective. They then packaged them together in a clear and understandable way.

So of course it bears strong similarities with "existing" swing principles in some aspects... eg staying centred, good shoulder turn.

To Bob and other teachers, I would NEVER denigrate their undoubted knowledge and my choosing to follow a different method is not intended to imply any criticism. There's more than one way to skin a cat...