Sigh...

[HawkeyeMS]

Playing today, one of my FCs hit his ball into the trees on the left of the 5th where it clattered around for a bit but no-one saw it drop. We eventually found it in the ditch that runs alongside the hole (red hazard) so I said "the only thing we need to do is establish where it last crossed". I was then rounded on by my partner and both the other pair telling me that it was a red hazard so it doesn't matter where it crossed and that you take your drop from where the ball is. I argued they were wrong and was told that it only matters where it crossed in a yellow hazard. We looked up the rule, they all learned something.

Later on, I hit my ball into the lateral hazard to the left of the 11th. As it happened, our competition secretary and rules guru(?!) who was driving around the course as marshal happened to be on the hole and saw my ball go into the hazard. I marked two club lengths from where he told me it crossed (about 3 yards behind where it lay), dropped the ball which rolled closer to the hole. I picked it up, dropped again and again it rolled closer. As I went to pick it up he said, "that's in play, what was wrong with the 1st drop". I told him it had rolled closer to the hole and he told me that it didn't matter because it wasn't closer than where the ball lay in the ditch and I had to play it from where it was I argued, he said I was wrong...I gave up.

 

[full_throttle]

Playing today, one of my FCs hit his ball into the trees on the left of the 5th where it clattered around for a bit but no-one saw it drop. We eventually found it in the ditch that runs alongside the hole (red hazard) so I said "the only thing we need to do is establish where it last crossed". I was then rounded on by my partner and both the other pair telling me that it was a red hazard so it doesn't matter where it crossed and that you take your drop from where the ball is. I argued they were wrong and was told that it only matters where it crossed in a yellow hazard. We looked up the rule, they all learned something.

Later on, I hit my ball into the lateral hazard to the left of the 11th. As it happened, our competition secretary and rules guru(?!) who was driving around the course as marshal happened to be on the hole and saw my ball go into the hazard. I marked two club lengths from where he told me it crossed (about 3 yards behind where it lay), dropped the ball which rolled closer to the hole. I picked it up, dropped again and again it rolled closer. As I went to pick it up he said, "that's in play, what was wrong with the 1st drop". I told him it had rolled closer to the hole and he told me that it didn't matter because it wasn't closer than where the ball lay in the ditch and I had to play it from where it was I argued, he said I was wrong...I gave up.

Didn't you pass the rule book to the comp sec and ask him to show you the rule? IMO you were correct to re-drop

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Didn't you pass the rule book to the comp sec and ask him to show you the rule? IMO you were correct to re-drop

I tried arguing that the position that the ball stopped was irrelevant but he wasn't having it. My partner was already on the green in two and I could only lay up with my 3rd so I suggested we'd take it up another time and carried on.

I will be e-mailing him, Idon't expect a reply.

 

[Hosel Fade]

I tried arguing that the position that the ball stopped was irrelevant but he wasn't having it. My partner was already on the green in two and I could only lay up with my 3rd so I suggested we'd take it up another time and carried on.

I will be e-mailing him, Idon't expect a reply.

Confused here, fairly sure it can roll forwards so long as it isn't closer than the last point where it crossed the hazard and it doesn't roll more than 2cl. Or are you saying the comp sec was talking about the point where it was actually lying it the ditch?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Confused here, fairly sure it can roll forwards so long as it isn't closer than the last point where it crossed the hazard and it doesn't roll more than 2cl. Or are you saying the comp sec was talking about the point where it was actually lying it the ditch?

He was using the ball in ditch as a reference, I was arguing that my ball rolled closer to the hole than the point it crossed the hazard. He told me as long as it wasn't closer than where the ball finished in the hazard it was OK.

 

[chrisd]

He was using the ball in ditch as a reference, I was arguing that my ball rolled closer to the hole than the point it crossed the hazard. He told me as long as it wasn't closer than where the ball finished in the hazard it was OK.

I may have asked him to explain that if there was water in the hazard and the ball drifted away back down stream 100 yards from where it first crossed the margin of the hazard where he'd expect you to drop

 

[Foxholer]

...
I will be e-mailing him, Idon't expect a reply.

Short email then!

'26-1 c!'

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Update:

I got a reply from our rules guru and he tells me that if the player can't see the ball go into the ditch then they should assume that the point it entered is the point it came to rest. I have asked if this is a decision or documented anywhere but have yet to have a reply.

The reason he thought my ball was in play when it rolled forward is because he thought I had dropped back at an angle from where the ball finished to get a better lie and so it rolling forward was actually not nearer the hole.

 

[rulie]

Update:

I got a reply from our rules guru and he tells me that if the player can't see the ball go into the ditch then they should assume that the point it entered is the point it came to rest. I have asked if this is a decision or documented anywhere but have yet to have a reply.

The reason he thought my ball was in play when it rolled forward is because he thought I had dropped back at an angle from where the ball finished to get a better lie and so it rolling forward was actually not nearer the hole.

Where the ball is at rest in the lateral hazard is only one piece of information to be used in estimating where it last crossed the margin of the hazard. Another would be the direction of play. The player must use the available information and use his honest judgement to estimate where the ball last crossed the margin.
A re-drop is not automatically required just because the dropped ball rolled closer to the hole from where it first struck a part of the course, but is required if it rolled closer to the hole than the point where it last crossed the margin of the hazard, even if that is an estimated point (there are several other reasons for re-dropping listed in Rule 20-2c).

 

[rulefan]

Update:

I got a reply from our rules guru and he tells me that if the player can't see the ball go into the ditch then they should assume that the point it entered is the point it came to rest. I have asked if this is a decision or documented anywhere but have yet to have a reply.

Although the question in this decision is different, the last sentence in the answer is relevant.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-20