Shorter courses for seniors?

[delc]

Our club has had a policy of playing senior qualifiers off the longer white tees. Very often this gives a CSS of SSS+3 and 'reductions only' for handicapping. So a lot of the time the players do not even get the 0.1 increase their not very good golf deserves. Over the long term this causes many seniors to have handicaps that are too low, which due to way the CSS works, causes even more 'reduction only' comps. A Catch 22 situation!

Last week we played a qualifier off the shorter yellow tees and on this occasion CSS=SSS and most of the players outside the winners circle did get their 0.1 increases. The SSS at our course is 71 off the whites (6350 yards) and 70 off the yellows (6015 yards), par 72 in both cases.

Generally the biggest problem for older players is loss of length, so playing off the yellow tees compensates for this. So should Senior qualifiers always be played off the yellows? You are still playing a measured course.

 

[rosecott]

No reason why they shouldn't be played off yellows but some of the more able seniors might want the challenge of the whites from time to time.

The matter of seniors whose handicaps are too low is another matter entirely. Your Handicap Committee should be on to this if it is as obvious as you suggest.

 

[Maninblack4612]

From an enjoyment point of view I would much rather play a course where I can reach most of the par fours with a drive & an iron. This is the way the course is designed to be played & I can't understand people who want to play off the back tees and can't reach any of the greens in regulation. If playing off yellows gives a better reflection of a player's handicap then, fair enough, do that.

 

[delc]

No reason why they shouldn't be played off yellows but some of the more able seniors might want the challenge of the whites from time to time.

The matter of seniors whose handicaps are too low is another matter entirely. Your Handicap Committee should be on to this if it is as obvious as you suggest.

The issue at our course is that there are a number of long par-4's and 3 of the par-3's that are rather out of reach for senior golfers off the white tees. Even two of the par-5's are pretty long. Playing off the yellow tees gives them a much better chance of getting on the green in regulation figures. Some of the summer comps are played off the even longer blue tees (about 6700 yards I think).

 

[bluewolf]

Another argument for the abolition of gender specific and Junior tees.. Use the tee best suited to your abilities and have your handicap assessed from that tee.. Everyone plays the length of course they're able to play, and everyone plays together...

 

[Deleted member 15344]

From an enjoyment point of view I would much rather play a course where I can reach most of the par fours with a drive & an iron. This is the way the course is designed to be played & I can't understand people who want to play off the back tees and can't reach any of the greens in regulation. If playing off yellows gives a better reflection of a player's handicap then, fair enough, do that.

Surely it should only be the scratch players who can reach every green in regulation ?

People have handicaps that adjust their scores when they can't get to green in regulation

 

[351DRIVER]

Another argument for the abolition of gender specific and Junior tees.. Use the tee best suited to your abilities and have your handicap assessed from that tee.. Everyone plays the length of course they're able to play, and everyone plays together...

I agree with this 100%, but i would always use the same tees as others in my group, i think its a but unsocial to all play from different spots, i think MOST male golfers can quite easily manage a 6000 yard course and most courses can offer that option

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Surely it should only be the scratch players who can reach every green in regulation ?

People have handicaps that adjust their scores when they can't get to green in regulation

True Phil, but I know what maninblack means, surely there are SI's 1-5 at your course that you have parred or reached the gir,
Our SI 1 I have parred only 3 times in 8 years and happily take a bogey anytime. But if I thought I was going to play a course and expect a 0.1 I wouldn't want to enter, big difference in a 0.1 playing well and a 0.1 playing badly.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

True Phil, but I know what maninblack means, surely there are SI's 1-5 at your course that you have parred or reached the gir,
Our SI 1 I have parred only 3 times in 8 years and happily take a bogey anytime. But if I thought I was going to play a course and expect a 0.1 I wouldn't want to enter, big difference in a 0.1 playing well and a 0.1 playing badly.

Yes but at times it needs a good hybrid or rely on chipping close to get a par.

If every hole was made reachable with a driver and an iron for majority then the course will be a pitch and putt being honest

If the player is a ten HC then SI 1-10 should be tough for them to reach in two and getting a par should be reward for good strikes but to most HC it's playing for the 2 points or the bogey

 

[FairwayDodger]

Surely it should only be the scratch players who can reach every green in regulation ?

People have handicaps that adjust their scores when they can't get to green in regulation

I think there is a difference between being capable of reaching every green in regulation, which is probably true for the majority of semi-decent players not just scratch, and actually finding every green in regulation, which even the pros seldom accomplish.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think there is a difference between being capable of reaching every green in regulation, which is probably true for the majority of semi-decent players not just scratch, and actually finding every green in regulation, which even the pros seldom accomplish.

Cheers Karen, that's simpler than what I was trying to say😃

 

[Old Skier]

Our club has had a policy of playing senior qualifiers off the longer white tees.

Strange, why has the CLUB got this policy. Surely it's up to the individual sections comp committees to decided which of their comps are played of which tees.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Surely it should only be the scratch players who can reach every green in regulation ?

People have handicaps that adjust their scores when they can't get to green in regulation

May be so but courses are designed with tee shot landing zones & greens are built to receive a shot from either a short or long iron. When I play I like to play the course "properly" & if I'm flogging away at every par 4 & not reaching the green I just get fed up & don't enjoy it as much. When you get old & start losing length, Phil, you might understand my point of view. Put simply, that's how I enjoy it d that's how I'll play when I have the chance.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Yes but at times it needs a good hybrid or rely on chipping close to get a par.

If every hole was made reachable with a driver and an iron for majority then the course will be a pitch and putt being honest

If the player is a ten HC then SI 1-10 should be tough for them to reach in two and getting a par should be reward for good strikes but to most HC it's playing for the 2 points or the bogey

Well, no, because from the back tees it would still satisfy the likes of you. That's why we have different tees. One of our local courses is 7,800 yards from the back tees. Fancy playing that? Don't think I would.

 

[bluewolf]

Surely it should only be the scratch players who can reach every green in regulation ?

People have handicaps that adjust their scores when they can't get to green in regulation

Unless I'm reading it wrong, then I'd disagree with this.. I'm not the biggest hitter, but if I can't reach a Par 4 in 2 then the hole is too long (or I've hit a bad drive - entirely likely)..

The determining factor in the difficuty of the hole should be the club required for the 2nd shot.. If it's less than 240 yards then I'm hitting 3 wood or less (and obviously, the likelihood of actually hitting the green decreases).. If I've crunched my Sunday best drive and I've still got over 250+ to the green then it's a Par 5...

This would obviously change if other factors were in play, such as wind etc...

 

[351DRIVER]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, then I'd disagree with this.. I'm not the biggest hitter, but if I can't reach a Par 4 in 2 then the hole is too long (or I've hit a bad drive - entirely likely)..

The determining factor in the difficuty of the hole should be the club required for the 2nd shot.. If it's less than 240 yards then I'm hitting 3 wood or less (and obviously, the likelihood of actually hitting the green decreases).. If I've crunched my Sunday best drive and I've still got over 250+ to the green then it's a Par 5...

This would obviously change if other factors were in play, such as wind etc...

Common sense gauge really, if you cannot hit a good drive and be left a 2nd shot that allows you to aim at the green on a par 4, you are on the wrong tee

 

[Deleted member 15344]

May be so but courses are designed with tee shot landing zones & greens are built to receive a shot from either a short or long iron. When I play I like to play the course "properly" & if I'm flogging away at every par 4 & not reaching the green I just get fed up & don't enjoy it as much. When you get old & start losing length, Phil, you might understand my point of view. Put simply, that's how I enjoy it d that's how I'll play when I have the chance.

Most course are designed with the landing areas for the scratch cat one players from the white.

Your HC is there because you can't reach every green in regulation with a driver and an iron - if it's a long hole that most struggle to reach in regulation the chances are you have a shot on that hole.

Should courses shorten themselves because people get old and lose length ? No I don't believe they should - your HC will adjust to keep you competitive

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, then I'd disagree with this.. I'm not the biggest hitter, but if I can't reach a Par 4 in 2 then the hole is too long (or I've hit a bad drive - entirely likely)..

The determining factor in the difficuty of the hole should be the club required for the 2nd shot.. If it's less than 240 yards then I'm hitting 3 wood or less (and obviously, the likelihood of actually hitting the green decreases).. If I've crunched my Sunday best drive and I've still got over 250+ to the green then it's a Par 5...

This would obviously change if other factors were in play, such as wind etc...

If you are having to take a wood out then the likelihood is it will be a very low SI hole so your HC will balance out being unable to reach the green in two. We as HC amatuers shouldn't be able to reach every par 4 with a driver and an iron - if we can drive then hit a wedge or short iron then it's likely the SI will be high - having to use a long iron the. The SI will be low.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Most course are designed with the landing areas for the scratch cat one players from the white.

Yes, and I want to land there so I play from a forward tee.

"Your HC is there because you can't reach every green in regulation with a driver and an iron"

No it isn't, it's a reflection of how I normally do against CSS, no matter what the length of the course

"Should courses shorten themselves because people get old and lose length"

I'm not suggesting that, I'm just saying that, from an enjoyment point of view anyone, old or young will enjoy the course more playing it at a length that suits them. Hitting 3 wood for every second shot is just not my idea of fun.

 

[Sats]

Another argument for the abolition of gender specific and Junior tees.. Use the tee best suited to your abilities and have your handicap assessed from that tee.. Everyone plays the length of course they're able to play, and everyone plays together...

Wholeheartedly agree - Forward tees =high handicappers, mid tees = mid handicappers and back tees for low/pro.