Shame on you PGA.....

JustOne

JustOne

Ryder Cup Winner
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Apr 6, 2009
Messages
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www.justoneuk.com
I'll only quote this one piece.. you'll have to read the rest yourself and decide....

Shame on you PGA of America for not taking the opportunity to apologize to the thousands of professionals that came for education and received the wrong information. It has hurt our profession for over a decade and cripples your (PGA of America) attempt to brand us as the experts in the game.
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http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/pga-ball-flight-laws-dr-gary-wiren/
 
This is an extract from the year 1 coaching manual of the PGA that I did in 2004

"Technology in the early part of the 20th Century was not nearly as advanced as it was
towards the end of that century and into the 21st. Without access to high quality still and
moving footage of impact some assumptions were made regarding what caused the ball
to fly as it did. However, now that technology has advanced there is indisputable evidence
to prove that what was suggested was in fact not the whole truth.

Some of the most controversial findings have been with regard to swing path and clubface
position. In the past, and still currently in some quarters, it has been suggested that, for example, a fade
is hit with an out to in swing path and the face square to the intended target at impact.
Science tells us that if this position was achieved at impact, the ball would start close to the intended target line and curve past the target and finish to the right – not on the target!

Clubface Alignment
Definition:
This is the degree at which the leading edge of the clubface is at right angles to the swing
path.
The clubface alignment is the most influential factor to consider when looking at the
direction the ball travels in.

Swing Path
Definition:
This is the direction of the path immediately before, during and immediately following
impact. This can be best observed by looking from behind the player towards the target,
or “down the line”.
The second most influential factor on the shape of the shot is the direction the club is
swinging in through impact. This can be best observed by looking from behind the player
towards the target, or “down the line”.

Photo045y.jpg
The PGA does not teach the same as the USPGA :)
 
Just wondering tho if the technology now tells you what you were though for years is wrong , whats to say technology in 6/8 years time wont prove whats been said now is totaly wrong ??
i got bored reading the link (goldfish attention span) to be honest but this is one bit i did get past ,be intrested on whats your opinion on this bit JO ...



"Now, I am not writing this post to try to prove that Dr Gary Wiren or the PGA Teaching Manual is wrong as it relates to the Ball Flight Laws or what causes the initial starting direction. Quite the contrary. I feel that the PGA Teaching Manual does an acceptable job of that. Both the article and Dr Wiren himself agree that some of the wording should be updated."
 
I have read the rest and have now decided.....

Ball flight laws, Clubhead Speed, Centeredness of Contact, Clubhead Path, Position of Club face and Angle of approach - Blah Blah Blah!!!

I could not give a flying toss about any of this pseudo-academic tripe. :sbox:

I fail to see what any of this has to do with the average club golfer whose focus should be as follows when playing golf:


Turn up, bacon roll with pals, light hearted banter, coffee, change, pick teams, put ball on tee, hit ball, more banter, find ball, hit again and continue until the 18th green. Then remove hat, shake hands, shower, change and reflect on round with more banter over a nice drink and a bite to eat. Pay out or receive winnings!

The article by John Graham is mind-numbingly dull, sanctimounious and utterly irrelevant to 99% of the golfing world.


Repeat after me - "Golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game....."
 
Snelly said:
:


Turn up, bacon roll with pals, light hearted banter, coffee, change, pick teams, put ball on tee, hit ball, more banter, find ball, hit again and continue until the 18th green. Then remove hat, shake hands, shower, change and reflect on round with more banter over a nice drink and a bite to eat. Pay out or receive winnings!




Repeat after me - "Golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game....."
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Well said that man .. so i will repeat after you .............

"Golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game....."
 
Snelly said:
I fail to see what any of this has to do with the average club golfer whose focus should be as follows when playing golf:


Turn up, bacon roll with pals, light hearted banter, coffee, change, pick teams, put ball on tee, hit ball, more banter, find ball, hit again and continue until the 18th green. Then remove hat, shake hands, shower, change and reflect on round with more banter over a nice drink and a bite to eat. Pay out or receive winnings!
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It would be cool if you went to your pro for a lesson and they said "Forget it, just go hit it again and have a bacon sarnie!" :)


I'm surprised you're being so flippant Snelly.... actually no, I'm not :D
 
Sign me up with the gospel of Snelly. Turn up, have fun, enjoy banter. Simples.

Golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game, golf is a simple game....."​
 
bladeplayer said:
,be intrested on whats your opinion on this bit JO ...


"Now, I am not writing this post to try to prove that Dr Gary Wiren or the PGA Teaching Manual is wrong as it relates to the Ball Flight Laws or what causes the initial starting direction. Quite the contrary. I feel that the PGA Teaching Manual does an acceptable job of that. Both the article and Dr Wiren himself agree that some of the wording should be updated."
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This....

It also seems strange to me that so much time went by (at least 15 years) and Dr Gary Wiren didn’t tell the PGA of America that what they were teaching was incorrect or at the very least opposite of what was in the PGA Teaching Manual.
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I only posted it so people who are NOT members of the forum can read something by a more authoritative figure than myself. I'm just the messenger..... don't shoot me! :D
 
When I told a workmate about five years ago that I taking up golf,he said"why,do you know what your getting
yourself into ",golf is a great game,but some people just want to make it harder than it is,so snellys reply is to
be admired,and respected.
 
I agree, the game is easy... but then I'm gifted like Snelly :D




Unfortunately many aren't and subsequently need lessons and there's not much point if they're being taught the wrong things is there?
 
BROOKIE said:
When I told a workmate about five years ago that I taking up golf,he said"why,do you know what your getting
yourself into ",golf is a great game,but some people just want to make it harder than it is,so snellys reply is to
be admired,and respected.
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Or

You could do a little research I.E ball flight laws and make the game easier for yourself.

Scientia Potentia Est (..... aka Knowledge Is Power)
 
JustOne said:
It would be cool if you went to your pro for a lesson and they said "Forget it, just go hit it again and have a bacon sarnie!" :)


I'm surprised you're being so flippant Snelly.... actually no, I'm not :D
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Not only would it be cool, it would be a miracle as I haven't had a lesson in over 20 years! :D


And I am not really being flippant. This is my opinion. Golf is a very, very simple game that is over-complicated by the marketing departments of the major manufacturers, the golfing media and teaching professionals that think they are postulating on rocket science. (I don't mean you Bob.) It isn't rocket science at all. it is just hitting a static ball with a club in the direction you intend..

If as examples, the terms in Graham's article or all the recent discussion in this forum on S&T (not having a dig by the way - I know plenty are finding it beneficial) were that relevant, mercurial or necessary then how on earth did Bobby Jones win all four majors in the same year before any of these things were even considered?

Golf has become far easier since the days of the greatest golfer ever with equipment advances and massive improvements in the condition of fairways and greens around the globe. But what else has changed? You still have to drive well, hit good irons, pitch, chip and putt well to card a good score. Same as it always was!

So why then, 80 years later, is golf now deemed to be a highly technical exercise requiring thousands of pounds of equipment and a detailed understanding of the latest theory on golfing biomechanics?

The answer of course is that golf is the same as it always was and all the modern guff we read about is mostly hot air and a waste of time, effort and money.

The game is still about getting the ball in 18 little holes with the fewest number of blows. Nothing has changed since the days of Bobby Jones really. It is just that there are major corporations with multi million pound marketing budgets that are designed to convince you otherwise.

I will end with a quote from Bobby Jones to sum this up. When asked about how to play as brilliantly as him his response was this - "The whole idea, it seems to me, is to do the thing in the simplest and most natural way................ "

Quite right maestro, quite right.


I am not having a go at anyone with this post. If approaching the game from a very technical aspect is what works for you then fine. I am just saying that in essence, golf is fundamentally unchanged in hundreds of years and scoring averages are very similar at club level over time.

Good golf is not about equipment, swing mechanics or lessons in my opinion. It is about you and how much effort you put in to improving until you are good enough to satisfy yourself. A new club, a new teacher or a new swing guru won't short cut the process. Not in my view anyway.
 
JustOne said:
This....



I only posted it so people who are NOT members of the forum can read something by a more authoritative figure than myself. I'm just the messenger..... don't shoot me! :D
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Just asking because i dont know mate thats all , if ya dont know ask ha .. just both parts seemed a bit contradictory to me .. il keep hacking along as i am anyhow ..
 
Gareth said:
Or

You could do a little research I.E ball flight laws and make the game easier for yourself.

Scientia Potentia Est (..... aka Knowledge Is Power)
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Gareth.

I have absolutely NO IDEA whatsoever as to what the new ball flight laws are and have managed to play some reasonably decent golf in my time without this information so naturally, I totally disagree with your view here.

Knowledge is not power when it comes to golf. It is just clutter that gives you too much to think about without tangible benefit.
 
I've posted a link to that article previously, in an effort to find out how new these ballflight laws are.

A book search for the perfect swing written in about 1968 identified that a ball will leave the clubface somewhere between the clubface direction and direction of clubface travel, usually nearer the clubface. They also add that a ball will curve relative to the size of the angle between path and aim. They also talk about gear effect in that book and tend to state assumptions they have made.

Gary Wiren even writes comments on the back in my edition.
 
All this for me is pointless IMO. I want to get the ball to go from point A to point B. I want the consistency to do that and to be able to have a reasonable confidence that I can know exactly which club will go the required distance.

My pro has taught me these things and given me a standard slight draw shot. That for me is all I feel I need.
He shows me and I do. If the ball flight laws are not right does it make a matter to me? NO because I have been taught how to get the ball from the Tee to the fairway and fairway to green.
 
Snelly said:
how on earth did Bobby Jones win all four majors in the same year before any of these things were even considered?
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Yes indeed! You're so right in fact. Perhaps it was because he didn't have lessons from his local PGA pro?

That's exactly why we need to look back and see what was right and what was wrong and compare that to current teaching and misunderstanding.

How many times have you heard people saying.... "I slide my hips too much"?

Really? OK, so how about your 'Mr Bobby Jones' that you mention so rightly.....

bobjones1.jpg

I'd say that left hip moves about A FOOT towards the target from the top of his backswing, wouldn't you?

If you look at the pic on the right his crotch is practically over the ball...yet modern day teaching would have players lean back and scoop it off the front foot!




Let's take a look at his swing from the back.......

blones2.jpg

Look at the position of the right shoulder compared to the right foot (yellow line).

Now I'm not saying we should all swing like this, some of us can't!, but we should be able to look back and study the mechanics to see what is happening and why.

I approve of the S&T pattern which advocates a lateral move left with the hips and yet even I can't get close to Bobby Jones' hip slide, I even struggle getting my left side (hip and shoulder) so stacked over the ball as he does in the second picture, and I'm actually TRYING to do it! :confused:

Snelly said:
So why then, 80 years later, is golf now deemed to be a highly technical exercise requiring thousands of pounds of equipment and a detailed understanding of the latest theory on golfing biomechanics?
Click to expand...

I think because it got so far from the truth (facts). No wonder we're a generation of slicers/fatters/thinners/toppers with what has been taught.

For me it's part of playing golf, part of my hobby and part of the enjoyment is looking at this stuff and then relating it to what I see happening in 'modern' coaching and on the course. Some people like to dig under the bonnet of their car... they don't just drive it :ears:


To be able to look at Bobby Jones' swing and analyse it is fantastic! Current technology has moved coaching on to a new era when you WILL see people more over the ball and hips going left...and people drawing the ball with a more consistent contact. Hopefully the average h/cap of golfers will actually become better for once.... at least we'll all be able to putt well ;)
 
If you want to drive your car to work at 30mph then all you need to do is understand the basics of driving a car. Press pedals, turn wheel and change gears, perfect. If you want to be a rally driver then this will not be enough, you will need to learn how to slide the car into bends, do handbrake turns, etc.

If you are gifted as a golf player then you may be able to get to a decent level of play without being taught. If you are the type of golfer that wants to turn up with a few mates on a Sunday morning, have a sarnie, *** the ball around the course, a few pints and home without caring about the score, then thats absolutely great if it makes you happy.

If you want to play golf at a good standard and are not one of the gifted 0.5% who can do it by the seat of their pants then you will need to learn, maybe by trial and error, more probably by lessons. Now if someone teaches you the wrong method to shape a ball and shaping a ball is something you need to do if you want to play well, then you will be hitting balls into the trees and scratching your head why if you are doing what you were told.

I dont agree this is something that can be pushed aside as unimportant.
 
I'm working on the principal my swing and its foibles are still an untapped mystery to the world of science and the laws of motion in terms of the swing mechanics and ball flight laws don't apply to my game
 
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