Shaft terminology - I aint got a scooby

[tugglesf239]

Could anyone please point me in the direction of anything that will increase my understanding of the differences between shaft types?

Any good websites or video links

Specifically i am curious about the differences between heavy and light shafts, stiff and regular, tipped and not tipped etc.

The reason i ask is at the range yesterday i was talking to my pro and he said that stiffer iron shafts may help with lowering the height my of iron shots (feel to high for my liking). I replied that the regular KBS regular shafts in my irons were very stiff already, but he debunked me saying that weight does not equate stiffness. They feel really stiff to me, especially compared to some other "regular" shafts i have used.

I understand that there is no industry standard regarding the stiffness of shafts and that it is more down to the manufacturer discretion.

My understanding goes that the faster the swing, the stiffer the shaft as this minimizes twisting and helps with dispersion. However if i am being honest i am not sure if that is 100% correct and i do need some schooling in the matter.

Just to add, this is not so i can rush out and buy new clubs/shafts to help me lower the flight of my iron shots. I will try and achieve that through a combination of lessons and practice.

 

[SVB]

I can't really answer your question, but these may be interesting (but perhaps the first a little partizan to the custom club building industry)

Article Link

Another one

Simon

 

[Hacker Khan]

I think the standard answer is go for a fitting with a launch monitor and a decent pro who knows how to use and interpret them. They will then be able to show you in real life what difference, if any, changing the shaft makes.

 

[Foxholer]

The OP is almost certainly after info about iron shafts rather than Wood ones. GolfSpy is normally quite good but that item on Torque was pretty mush rubbish and pointless imo. btw.

And he's probably after info rather than costly practice. Though it's tougher to imagine as opposed to feel.

The Wishon and Maltby resources are pretty good for independent advice/info. But it's easiest, albeit most expensive, to experience! I've used a whole range (about 15 different flavours) of iron shafts and eventually worked out the ones that suit me best.

In truth, if you like and get on with a particular style, Regular or Stiff is about the only thing you need to consider.

There are lots of Rules of Thumb with shafts, but there are probably almost as many exceptions as there are obeyers!

If you have a friendly Pro with a fitting cart - of any OEM - you could try different sorts out to see/feel for yourself.

 

[tugglesf239]

Hi all thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, i have not posted in order to purchase new shafts. I am merely interested in how different shaft characteristics affect the golf swing as opposed to "my" golf swing

For example

What is the difference between a heavy & Stiff shaft and a light & stiff shaft?

This is not specifically for my own personal swing, i am more interested in the effect they have on the ball by design. If that makes sense?

 

[the_coach]

Hi all thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, i have not posted in order to purchase new shafts. I am merely interested in how different shaft characteristics affect the golf swing as opposed to "my" golf swing

For example

What is the difference between a heavy & Stiff shaft and a light & stiff shaft?

This is not specifically for my own personal swing, i am more interested in the effect they have on the ball by design. If that makes sense?

You'd have to have a more solid swing be a little stronger to swing a heavier shaft, take a little more effort to swing the same speed than it would to swing the lighter stiffer shaft that same speed.

 

[Foxholer]

Hi all thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, i have not posted in order to purchase new shafts. I am merely interested in how different shaft characteristics affect the golf swing as opposed to "my" golf swing

For example

What is the difference between a heavy & Stiff shaft and a light & stiff shaft?

This is not specifically for my own personal swing, i am more interested in the effect they have on the ball by design. If that makes sense?

Heavier does tend to be more 'stable' than the light one. So slight aberrations have less drastic effect. I'm pretty straight with heavier shafts, but all over the place with light ones!

Experiencing them is still best way to find out.

 

[Ethan]

This is a big complicated issue, and many viewpoints are available. Here are mine.

Lets take the three biggest iron shafts in the game right now. True Temper Dynamic Gold, Project X and KBS Tour. There are variations of each, but we will ignore those for now. Also, some assumptions. Heavier shafts are harder to move than lighter ones. So, if you are a player who is close to your limit with your current shaft, adding weight may make it unplayable. But if you are someone who is playing something a bit soft for you, adding weight may stabilise it and give more control and a better trajectory. The effect of weight (and flex) depends where you are in your comfort zone.

TTDG has been the standard for many years now. It is a heavy-ish shaft with a stiff tip but softer butt section. This tends to give it a lowish launch, but with spin and decent feel.

Project X is sorta the opposite. It has a stiff butt and a softer tip. This can make it feel very stable (if the flex works for you) or board (if you are on the limit or have a smooth swingers action). The ball flight is medium, but flattish trajectory and lower spin.

KBS is somewhere in the middle but closer to PX. KBS are often said toy be for swingers, compared to PX being for hitters. As a general rule, this is probably fine.

I am not sure I would say KBS regular is very stiff. Actually, I definitely wouldn't. KBS Tour R have a 5.0 FCM (Rifle scale flex). This compares to 4.8 for TT DG R300 and 5.5 for PX 5.0.

 

[nemicu]

This is a big complicated issue, and many viewpoints are available. Here are mine.

Lets take the three biggest iron shafts in the game right now. True Temper Dynamic Gold, Project X and KBS Tour. There are variations of each, but we will ignore those for now. Also, some assumptions. Heavier shafts are harder to move than lighter ones. So, if you are a player who is close to your limit with your current shaft, adding weight may make it unplayable. But if you are someone who is playing something a bit soft for you, adding weight may stabilise it and give more control and a better trajectory. The effect of weight (and flex) depends where you are in your comfort zone.

TTDG has been the standard for many years now. It is a heavy-ish shaft with a stiff tip but softer butt section. This tends to give it a lowish launch, but with spin and decent feel.

Project X is sorta the opposite. It has a stiff butt and a softer tip. This can make it feel very stable (if the flex works for you) or board (if you are on the limit or have a smooth swingers action). The ball flight is medium, but flattish trajectory and lower spin.

KBS is somewhere in the middle but closer to PX. KBS are often said toy be for swingers, compared to PX being for hitters. As a general rule, this is probably fine.

I am not sure I would say KBS regular is very stiff. Actually, I definitely wouldn't. KBS Tour R have a 5.0 FCM (Rifle scale flex). This compares to 4.8 for TT DG R300 and 5.5 for PX 5.0.

See, this is the problem with quantifying shafts - it's open to personal interpretation.
In my experience, Project X has one of the stiffest tip sections out there - it's what makes it the shaft that it is. The tip stiffness is constant through the set and so is the butt section, the only variable is the taper rate between the butt and tip which gives it the unique spin and launch properties. The very stiff tip is what makes it feel harsh to some (coupled with the stiff butt) but is also what helps in reducing spin compared to it's relative launch.
It is indeed complex stuff, I completely agree on that - and I also agree on PX being for "hitters" of the ball. But if you read anything on shafts in general, then sooner or later you will find some sort of contradiction based on anecdotal evidence.
This is the biggest problem in understanding shafts, because everyones perception levels are different even when you throw fundamental physics into the equation. FCM or butt frequency throws even more confusion into the mix - simply because it relates only to butt frequency (or relative stiffness) of only one section and not the whole profile of the shaft.
This is why I always recommend demo days and fitting sessions so golfers can get a feel for themselves how shafts perform. Trying to describe on paper how each shaft works is nigh on impossible, but as you can appreciate, certain generalisations apply.

 

[drdel]

How about this....

Graphite shafts are woven from carbon fiber and are generally lighter in weight than steel shafts. Graphite shafts became popular among amateurs, because lighter weight helped generate increased club-head speed. The carbon fiber also dissipated some of the stinging vibrations that were caused by poorly struck shots.

Modern composite shafts have three layers of fiber winding, adding substantial rigidity, and in turn, performance.[1] Companies like Fujikura, UST, Grafalloy, Mitsubishi, and Aldila are leading manufacturers of composite shafts.

Shafts are quantified in a number of different ways. The most common is the shaft flex. Simply, the shaft flex is the amount that the shaft will bend when placed under a load. A stiffer shaft will not flex as much, which requires more power to bend and "whip" through the ball properly (which results in higher club speed at impact for more distance), while a more flexible shaft will whip with less power required for better distance on slower swings, but may torque and over-flex if swung with too much power causing the head not to be square, resulting in lower accuracy. Most shaft makers offer a variety of flexes. The most common are: L (Lady), A (Soft Regular, Intermediate or Senior), R (Regular), S (Stiff), and X (Tour Stiff, Extra Stiff or Strong). A regular flex shaft is generally appropriate for those with an average head speed (80-94 mph), while an A-Flex (or senior shaft) is for players with a slower swing speed (70-79 mph), and the stiffer shafts, such as S-Flex and X-Flex (Stiff and Extra-Stiff shafts) are reserved only for those players with an above average swinging speed, usually above 100 mph (160 km/h). Some companies also offer a "stiff-regular" or "firm" flex for players whose club speed falls in the upper range of a Regular shaft (90-100 mph), allowing golfers and clubmakers to fine-tune the flex for a stronger amateur-level player.

On off-center hits, the clubhead twists as a result of a torque, reducing accuracy as the face of the club is not square to the player's stance at impact. In recent years, many manufacturers have produced and marketed many low-torque shafts aimed at reducing the twisting of the clubhead at impact, however these tend to be stiffer along their length as well. Most recently, many brands have introduced stiff-tip shafts. These shafts offer the same flex throughout most of the shaft, in order to attain the "whip" required to propel the ball properly, but also include a stiffer tip, which cuts back drastically on the lateral torque acting on the head.

Widely overlooked as a part of the club, the shaft is considered by many to be the transmission of the modern clubhead. Shafts range in price from a mere $20 to over $1200. Current graphite shafts weigh considerably less than their steel counterparts, (sometimes weighing less than 50 grams for a driver shaft) allowing for lighter clubs that can be swung at greater speed. Within the last ten years, performance shafts have been integrated into the club making process. Performance shafts are designed to address specific criteria, such as to launch the ball higher or lower or to adjust for the timing of a player's swing to load and unload the shaft at the correct moments of the swing for maximum power. Whereas in the past each club could come with only one shaft, today's clubheads can be fit with dozens of different shafts, creating the potential for a much better fit for the average golfer.

 

[Foxholer]

Much good stuff DrDel, but I'm not sure it actually answers the questions the OP has. And a link would have sufficed!

Btw. Every proper (non-shank) strike of a golf ball is an off-centre one from the shaft's pov!

 

[drdel]

Much good stuff DrDel, but I'm not sure it actually answers the questions the OP has. And a link would have sufficed!

Btw. Every proper (non-shank) strike of a golf ball is an off-centre one from the shaft's pov!

Terribly sorry old chap just thought I'd save Tugglesf239 some time by including the text and perhaps answer a few of his questions as he specifically asked about the science and understanding of club design and did not want advice on a purchase !

 

[Foxholer]

Terribly sorry old chap just thought I'd save Tugglesf239 some time by including the text and perhaps answer a few of his questions as he specifically asked about the science and understanding of club design and did not want advice on a purchase !

No problem dear boy. Though I don't see the words 'science' or 'understanding of club design' specifically asked in either of his posts. Always good to have the reasons, but I believe (and, as always, there's presumption) his emphasis is on 'What' happens, 'Why' and 'How', rather than the 'What is it' and 'How is it made'.

Good to see the Tom Wishon assertion that the shaft is not the 'engine' of the swing though - but it is the 'transmission'! An excellent analogy!

 

[tugglesf239]

Thanks all

As i understand things currently there is no real way to really nail down how the shaft characteristics affect the golf swing.

I suppose i wanted a simplistic view that boiled down to "this = that" and "that = this", but that is near impossible as each characteristic will react differently to each individual swing.

Whilst i wanted to understand the generalist nature and not focus on the individual combination of characteristics plus swing, i would now say that this would be an impossible task and the only way to understand is to consider the individual?

Does that make sense?

The only thing that i am still curious about is, if a club shaft designer decides to build a shaft that is

Stiff butt, lightweight, ultra stiff and tipped..

He / she must have a design goal in mind? so what the heck is it??

I think i get it, but am still none the wiser