Sex discrimination in golf

sunshine

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I don't know if this is the case at Nairn - don't actually remember which tees I played from when I visited you up there - but there is a reason why women at many clubs are reluctant to have men playing from "their" tees. That's because, frequently, the "women's" tees are very small and poorly maintained compared to the "men's" tees and they simply can't handle the increased traffic. Moreover, due to the shorter distance you find lots of men play irons from those tees so dig them up quite badly. Factor in, also, that women generally don't have separate casual and competition tees so they can get quite protective of them. Men's sections are generally many times the size of the women's so even a small proportion playing forward could be many more players than the handful of women playing further back.
This is helpful insight. I was struggling to understand why somebody would be protective over tees!
 

sunshine

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Just after the first lock down, we had a very famous LET and LPGA tour player visit our course, she shot 68 off the whites. I've only heard pride from our member's that she chose to visit our members club and no critisim of her playing off the "men's tee's.
Indeed. But based on this thread, there are several people on here who don't believe she should have been "allowed" to play off the whites. Rules are rules.
 

sunshine

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My club is also going to have a female captain in a couple of years. Makes no difference to me, but I'm glad that progress is happening.

I don't do club politics, but if I had to guess, I reckon she is likely to have more challenges with obstructive people in the Ladies section than any sexist male members.
 

AliMc

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My club is also going to have a female captain in a couple of years. Makes no difference to me, but I'm glad that progress is happening.

I don't do club politics, but if I had to guess, I reckon she is likely to have more challenges with obstructive people in the Ladies section than any sexist male members.
We have had a female club captain for the last 3 years, should have been a 2 year stint but the handover was delayed due to the pandemic, and other than gender comps anyone can play off whatever tee they want at all times, our current lady club champion frequently plays off the whites with her grandfather and a couple of his mates
 

Liverpoolphil

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Indeed. But based on this thread, there are several people on here who don't believe she should have been "allowed" to play off the whites. Rules are rules.
If the club have a policy that only allows certain tees to be used for certain events or people why can’t people just respect the clubs wishes ?

Surely the process is simple - ask the club if it’s ok , if they say no then respect that

And yes rules are rules - and in golf rules are key and there because the club decide on them - it’s the same argument when it comes to a clubs dress code.

And if the player doesn’t like the rule then don’t play there

But no one shoold be able to do whatever they want regardless of rules a club has put in place and that’s the same for any tour player regardless of sex

I have no issues with a lady playing of any colour tee provided the rules of the club allow them too
 

sunshine

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And yes rules are rules - and in golf rules are key and there because the club decide on them - it’s the same argument when it comes to a clubs dress code.
Here we go - first mention of dress code!!! :D

Rules enforcing what tees people are allowed to use are about as pompous as rules about socks. Not all rules are equal.
 

Liverpoolphil

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Here we go - first mention of dress code!!! :D

Rules enforcing what tees people are allowed to use are about as pompous as rules about socks. Not all rules are equal.
But they are rules - rules that I would expect every member and visitor to follow regardless of how stupid they maybe for some - that’s life within Golf.

People aren’t forced to play the club with those silly rules - always have the choice
 

AliMc

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I think Dunbar took the view that as we are asking between £90 and £125 a round it's a bit much to to tell folk they can't play off the medals, we are lucky though that we have numerous tees on all holes, on non medal days the whites are generally moved forward to the front of the back tees
 

BiMGuy

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If the club have a policy that only allows certain tees to be used for certain events or people why can’t people just respect the clubs wishes ?

Surely the process is simple - ask the club if it’s ok , if they say no then respect that

And yes rules are rules - and in golf rules are key and there because the club decide on them - it’s the same argument when it comes to a clubs dress code.

And if the player doesn’t like the rule then don’t play there

But no one shoold be able to do whatever they want regardless of rules a club has put in place and that’s the same for any tour player regardless of sex

I have no issues with a lady playing of any colour tee provided the rules of the club allow them too
Just because a club makes a rule doesn't mean its not discriminating against a particular group.

Change the subject to race or disability. Does your argument still apply?
 

Liverpoolphil

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This is all getting a bit silly now.
Yep -

Was speaking to someone who has been involved in course design for your average golf club

Each tee is designed for the relevant ability of the players they expect to be playing from that tee - the forward tees designed predominantly for females with placements of bunkers etc and where the tee is placed taking account of the distances they average club female hits the ball - and the same with the yellows and whites etc

Now most clubs that have rules for which tee is used for what do it because that’s how the course is designed to help with both the pace of play and the enjoyment of the golfer

But what needs to happen for all clubs is ability is looked at first and foremost now when deciding which tee is used as well as listening to the greenstaff in regards tee wear and pace of play
 

evemccc

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but there is a reason why women at many clubs are reluctant to have men playing from "their" tees. That's because, frequently, the "women's" tees are very small and poorly maintained compared to the "men's" tees and they simply can't handle the increased traffic. Moreover, due to the shorter distance you find lots of men play irons from those tees so dig them up quite badly. Factor in, also, that women generally don't have separate casual and competition tees so they can get quite protective of them. Men's sections are generally many times the size of the women's so even a small proportion playing forward could be many more players than the handful of women playing further back.
.
Irrespective of the (accepted as true, and something I think should change) general lack of choice for women’s tees (casual and comp often being the same), just taking your point above, you can’t have it both ways

I think a fair observer of the vast majority of clubs would record a very large majority of male golfers — women members are far fewer….so west and tear on ‘their’ tees is like to be far less

You can’t condone or excuse away some women being reluctant to share ‘their’ tees…with higher cap men or seniors. The state of Yellow tees is routinely far worse than the Reds….and that’s because they’re used far m, far less
 

GB72

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Is this not the point of the slope system, that you can play off any tee and adjust your handicap accordingly. At my old club, most of the regular weekly comps allowed you to pick your tee when you collected your card and your handicap was adjusted accordingly for the comp.

The problem lies in that the club only had provision for the men to pick white or yellow and that is wrong. The systems should have been applied accross all tees allowing men to play off the reds and women to play of the yellows or whites. With a system in place that allows adjustment for what tee you play off, is there really any excuse not ao allow people to enter off whatever tee is the most fun for them. Having fun playing is, after all, the idea.
 

Swango1980

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Is this not the point of the slope system, that you can play off any tee and adjust your handicap accordingly. At my old club, most of the regular weekly comps allowed you to pick your tee when you collected your card and your handicap was adjusted accordingly for the comp.

The problem lies in that the club only had provision for the men to pick white or yellow and that is wrong. The systems should have been applied accross all tees allowing men to play off the reds and women to play of the yellows or whites. With a system in place that allows adjustment for what tee you play off, is there really any excuse not ao allow people to enter off whatever tee is the most fun for them. Having fun playing is, after all, the idea.
Theoretically, men and women could have been rated to play of ANY tee before WHS and slope. Slope is simply an added benefit in that it takes into account the relative difference between golfers of different abilities. However, at the time WHS was being driven out, there was also a desire to rate men and women of all sets of tees at a course as well. Some courses did, some didn't. However, those that didn't were not necessarily against it, it is simply that there was poor communication between the authorities and clubs. At my last club, no one on the Committee was asked how they wanted the tees rated, we were just told the raters had been out one day and we got the results some time later. By default, they just rated the reds for women and yellows and whites for men. Had we been asked before they came to the course, we likely would have rated the tees for all sexes. Mind you, once done, I've not known there to be a demand from any of the club golfers to do this. I am sure if there is in the future, clubs will ask for more ratings.
 

GB72

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Theoretically, men and women could have been rated to play of ANY tee before WHS and slope. Slope is simply an added benefit in that it takes into account the relative difference between golfers of different abilities. However, at the time WHS was being driven out, there was also a desire to rate men and women of all sets of tees at a course as well. Some courses did, some didn't. However, those that didn't were not necessarily against it, it is simply that there was poor communication between the authorities and clubs. At my last club, no one on the Committee was asked how they wanted the tees rated, we were just told the raters had been out one day and we got the results some time later. By default, they just rated the reds for women and yellows and whites for men. Had we been asked before they came to the course, we likely would have rated the tees for all sexes. Mind you, once done, I've not known there to be a demand from any of the club golfers to do this. I am sure if there is in the future, clubs will ask for more ratings.
I guess that the question then has to be, were the women asked if they would like the option to play off other tees. I can see the original situations being an omission but was this followed up with any request for the raters to attend again. With regards the demand, with the majority of members being men and with the way that the women are sometimes treated at clubs, I am not surprised that there is not an audible clamour for the ladies to be allowed to play off the 'mens' tees'.

Not having a go at you or, indeed, your club, just expressing the frustration as to the inequalities that exist within golf clubs in general.
 

Swango1980

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I guess that the question then has to be, were the women asked if they would like the option to play off other tees. I can see the original situations being an omission but was this followed up with any request for the raters to attend again. With regards the demand, with the majority of members being men and with the way that the women are sometimes treated at clubs, I am not surprised that there is not an audible clamour for the ladies to be allowed to play off the 'mens' tees'.

Not having a go at you or, indeed, your club, just expressing the frustration as to the inequalities that exist within golf clubs in general.
To be honest, there were probably around a dozen ladies at our club, all at a very beginner level. When I joined in 2005, there was a healthy ladies section. However, a year or 2 later, pretty much the entire ladies section left the club after a huge fallout with the owner, where he effectively bullied a lady into tears. I have heard many stories since, such as a lady who used to be at the club informed us that he once locked her in a cupboard. Recently, about 80-90% of the mens section (who played in comps) have left the club due to recent fallouts with him, including pretty much the entire Committee. Ironically, it is one of the few inexperienced ladies at the club who has pretty much taken up every role on the Committee until they sort themselves out.

Pre latest fallout, in my time at the Committee, the comp sec for the Mens Section opened up all competitions to both men and women. Although there were few women, there was one who liked to play competitively, and so she played regularly. For some of the more social comps, we had some other groups of ladies who started to play. The intention was for us to make it a friendly club for all, and things were improving as time went on. Sadly, every step forward we took was usually followed by 10 leaps backwards when the owner did something to undo everything we did. There is no doubt that, had we been asked, we would have had all tees rated for all. Had we still been at the club, we may well be asking for this assessment to be done. However, I think the rating teams were that busy, trying to get all the courses ready for WHS, that they didn't automatically do this. If a club subsequently requested it, I'm unsure how quickly it could have been done. Only after WHS launched, clubs have slowly started to realise this could have been an option. I'm guessing most clubs who have not had it done either are still not aware it could be done, or waiting for WHS settles down in general before requesting the additional information, or do not themselves think it is an issue with their members. Certainly, if any ladies feel hard done by, they should make their feelings known to the club. Same with men who want to play off reds. I don't think a club can be accused of discrimination until it actively ignores the pleas of its members
 
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