Scottish Fitba'

[Liverpoolphil]

Leverkeusen won it, Ajax won it, Porto won it. Celtic won European Cup and made final of 2003 Europa League/UEFA Cup. Steaua Bucharest won European Cup too. Ajax went pretty far last season with a young team.
5000-1 is not short, don't think any bookies would offer longer odds, not unusual for a smaller team to get a good cup run now and again.

You're promoting Colchester FC as you're a fan I assume - they don't win much but no-one's knocking them? Don't see the point of coming onto a thread just to knock the best side in Scotland because the EPL has better teams than any league bar Spain. No reason at all to expect a side from Romania should be well beaten by a club from Scotland.

Bayer didnt actually win it but can see the point youre making but i think there are subtle differences between the clubs you mention and Celtics situation

Ajaz for example have won of the best youth production systems in world football and they are always producing World Class talent - and sometimes they hit a hot patch where they get about 5 or 6 of them in one go and their team is outstanding - happened in the 90's with the De Boers and Seedorff , Davids etc and then last year with De Jong , De Ligt amongst a few , and then Porto tap into the Brazillian market and unearth gems , they have done it for decades and again sometimes they get a good bunch together and do well - 04 for example

Celtic dont have either which doesnt help them but one of the biggest differences is the level of competitiveness - that past ten years 4 teams have won the Dutch league and there is a strong competition for the title between Ajaz , PSV and Feyenoord , in Portugal you have the strong rivalry between Benfica and Porto and its mainly only a couple of points between them - Celtic stroll to the league with not much competition , they are by far the strongest team in the league - you mention Celtic getting to the Europa League Final - was that not in the 2000's when Rangers were also strong and it was a yearly battle between the two and they both reached the final at some stage with both teams having some very good players - Celtic need strong competition , to help attract better telly money for the whole league and also the better players - if Celtic keep strolling to the league each year then the situation is going to get worse for them - the fans will celebrate 10 in a row then 11 in a row and thats great but it wont help them in European Comps - it maybe criminal to say but a stronger Rangers challenging them will make Celtic better

 

[Jacko_G]

Bayer didnt actually win it but can see the point youre making but i think there are subtle differences between the clubs you mention and Celtics situation

Ajaz for example have won of the best youth production systems in world football and they are always producing World Class talent - and sometimes they hit a hot patch where they get about 5 or 6 of them in one go and their team is outstanding - happened in the 90's with the De Boers and Seedorff , Davids etc and then last year with De Jong , De Ligt amongst a few , and then Porto tap into the Brazillian market and unearth gems , they have done it for decades and again sometimes they get a good bunch together and do well - 04 for example

Celtic dont have either which doesnt help them but one of the biggest differences is the level of competitiveness - that past ten years 4 teams have won the Dutch league and there is a strong competition for the title between Ajaz , PSV and Feyenoord , in Portugal you have the strong rivalry between Benfica and Porto and its mainly only a couple of points between them - Celtic stroll to the league with not much competition , they are by far the strongest team in the league - you mention Celtic getting to the Europa League Final - was that not in the 2000's when Rangers were also strong and it was a yearly battle between the two and they both reached the final at some stage with both teams having some very good players - Celtic need strong competition , to help attract better telly money for the whole league and also the better players - if Celtic keep strolling to the league each year then the situation is going to get worse for them - the fans will celebrate 10 in a row then 11 in a row and thats great but it wont help them in European Comps - it maybe criminal to say but a stronger Rangers challenging them will make Celtic better

Two horse bigot battle won't make Scottish football better that is fact.

Money talks. End of discussion, money has killed football and it will continue to widen the chasm between big clubs and provisional sides.

 

[Crazyface]

Two horse bigot battle won't make Scottish football better that is fact.

Money talks. End of discussion, money has killed football and it will continue to widen the chasm between big clubs and every other club

Fixed that for you

 

[Jacko_G]

Back to discussing Scottish football, I'm not sure why Celtic can't see that in Bain they have a dreadful goalkeeper. A position that they MUST strengthen if they want to improve.

 

[Liverpoolphil]

Two horse bigot battle won't make Scottish football better that is fact.

Money talks. End of discussion, money has killed football and it will continue to widen the chasm between big clubs and provisional sides.

Money does talk - and Scottish Football needs to find a way to bring in more money - i doubt that the Telly deals in places like Holland and Portugal are that much bigger than what Scotland get yet both those leagues manage to produce a lot of quality players because its more competitive - having one team dominate does nothing for the league - 9 years now is it ? So they need to find a way to bring in more money to the league and telly deals help that - but to make the telly deal better then got to make the league more competitive - its a chicken egg scenario , get another team challenging and boost the appeal and a strong Rangers does that and then the other teams need to move up with it.

 

[Jacko_G]

How can you compare Scotland to Portugal when Scotland has half the population of Portugal?

TV deals are not suddenly going to give Dundee United £10 million to pay of debt and buy players. Home grown talent is picked off by wealthier clubs, the best Scottish football can hope for is to become a decent feeder league. No sugar daddy is coming in, no company is going to throw investment into a pee poor league for no return.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

How can you compare Scotland to Portugal when Scotland has half the population of Portugal?

TV deals are not suddenly going to give Dundee United £10 million to pay of debt and buy players. Home grown talent is picked off by wealthier clubs, the best Scottish football can hope for is to become a decent feeder league. No sugar daddy is coming in, no company is going to throw investment into a pee poor league for no return.

Scottish football has the best attendance figures [pro rata/population] in Europe.
Attendance figures keep going up year on year, last year was an all time record.

Is that despite or because of TV.

I am a firm believer that you have to make money [profit] off your core product or you will ultimately fail.
You see clubs in the UK spending crazy money on bang average players, getting relegated whilst carrying a huge wage bill then going to the wall. I would include Ranger and Hearts in that group, but recent problems with great English clubs like Bolton, Portsmouth, Bury and Sunderland should sound a loud warning clanger.

 

[Slab]

Money does talk - and Scottish Football needs to find a way to bring in more money - i doubt that the Telly deals in places like Holland and Portugal are that much bigger than what Scotland get yet both those leagues manage to produce a lot of quality players because its more competitive - having one team dominate does nothing for the league - 9 years now is it ? So they need to find a way to bring in more money to the league and telly deals help that - but to make the telly deal better then got to make the league more competitive - its a chicken egg scenario , get another team challenging and boost the appeal and a strong Rangers does that and then the other teams need to move up with it.

Its not a pretty picture actually

Annual TV revenue per year in millions:


edit: this was last year and there's been increases but not enough to change the overall picture e.g Scotland are now on par with the Swiss

edit edit: for comparison the EFL (so no premier league) of Championship/Div1/Div2 TV deal would slot into 2nd spot on 120m

 

[Slime]

A bad result but Cluj are Romanian League champs the last 2 seasons, this stage of qualifying early in season anything can happen. Doesn't make Celtic crap overnight but disappointing for Hoops fans.....again.
Lets face it the chances of Celtic winning a Champions League any season start are about the same as Leicester winning the EPL..........hold on.

But they've been crap for many, many years.
They just happen to be in a crap league full of even crappier teams and have a crap manager at the helm.
Got beaten at home by a Romanian team whilst playing one of your better midfielders as a full back with defenders sitting on the bench.
Very strange.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

To add a bit more info to this we need to take population into account. For the countries in the chart shown by Slab, in reverse order (2017 numbers)

Scotland 5.4m
Switzerland 8.4m
Norway 5.2m
Sweden 10m
Denmark 5.7m
Netherlands 17m
Belgium 11.3m
Portugal 10.3m

Norway and Denmark, in particular, have punched above Scotland in the tv revenue stakes but that may be because things are generally more expensive in those countries and so people accept paying more. Portugal is an interesting one. Twice the population but they bring in 8 x the revenue. Not a wealthy country either. Belgium also bring in 3 times the revenue from only 2 times the population.

Not sure what you can read into the numbers other than perhaps Scotland is not the football hotbed we perhaps thought. The teams are inevitably hamstrung by this though.

 

[Slab]

To add a bit more info to this we need to take population into account. For the countries in the chart shown by Slab, in reverse order (2017 numbers)

Scotland 5.4m
Switzerland 8.4m
Norway 5.2m
Sweden 10m
Denmark 5.7m
Netherlands 17m
Belgium 11.3m
Portugal 10.3m

Norway and Denmark, in particular, have punched above Scotland in the tv revenue stakes but that may be because things are generally more expensive in those countries and so people accept paying more. Portugal is an interesting one. Twice the population but they bring in 8 x the revenue. Not a wealthy country either. Belgium also bring in 3 times the revenue from only 2 times the population.

Not sure what you can read into the numbers other than perhaps Scotland is not the football hotbed we perhaps thought. The teams are inevitably hamstrung by this though.

I wonder how much of a part population will play
England has 10 times the population of Scotland and a football TV deal worth 50 times that of Scotland
(& the weird bit is that residents of each country pay the same amount for their TV sport packages to the same companies)

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I wonder how much of a part population will play
England has 10 times the population of Scotland and a football TV deal worth 50 times that of Scotland
(& the weird bit is that residents of each country pay the same amount for their TV sport packages to the same companies)

There has to be some correlation I would have thought but clearly it is not everything. That is one for the relevant leagues to work out why they get so much less, why they are not attracting more viewers when other countries attract proportionately more.

 

[Grogger]

The 10 in a row seems like even less of an achievement now

 

[Jacko_G]

But they've been crap for many, many years.
They just happen to be in a crap league full of even crappier teams and have a crap manager at the helm.
Got beaten at home by a Romanian team whilst playing one of your better midfielders as a full back with defenders sitting on the bench.
Very strange.

I'm interested to know what your thought pattern was behind this post. Just sounds like a condescending, almost smirking rant. Adds nothing to the thread right enough as most people in Scotland will admit that the standard of football isn't great, however it is what it is and we get on with it.

 

[User62651]

The 10 in a row seems like even less of an achievement now

Still have to train, score the goals and win the games.

Juventus going for 9 in a row this season.
Bayern going for 8 in a row this season.
PSG have won 6 of the last 7 Ligue1 titles.

These are so called big leagues in Europe. One team dominating isn't so unusual. Hence the need and soon to be demand for a European Super League(s)?

 

[Jacko_G]

Still have to train, score the goals and win the games.

Juventus going for 9 in a row this season.
Bayern going for 8 in a row this season.
PSG have won 6 of the last 7 Ligue1 titles.

These are so called big leagues in Europe. One team dominating isn't so unusual. Hence the need and soon to be demand for a European Super League(s)?

I'd suggest that is the last thing that football needs. More money to the rich, scraps to the rest.

I'm of the opinion that Scotland, Scandinavian countries and others should walk from UEFA and start up on their own. Its clear that they're not wanted in European tournaments, the current set up means they will never ever compete.

 

[Grogger]

Still have to train, score the goals and win the games.

Juventus going for 9 in a row this season.
Bayern going for 8 in a row this season.
PSG have won 6 of the last 7 Ligue1 titles.

These are so called big leagues in Europe. One team dominating isn't so unusual. Hence the need and soon to be demand for a European Super League(s)?

Wouldn’t say the French league is a big league.

Wouldn’t compare Bayern and Juventus with Celtic either. At least they’re being challenged unlike Celtic.

 

[azazel]

To add a bit more info to this we need to take population into account. For the countries in the chart shown by Slab, in reverse order (2017 numbers)

Scotland 5.4m
Switzerland 8.4m
Norway 5.2m
Sweden 10m
Denmark 5.7m
Netherlands 17m
Belgium 11.3m
Portugal 10.3m

Norway and Denmark, in particular, have punched above Scotland in the tv revenue stakes but that may be because things are generally more expensive in those countries and so people accept paying more. Portugal is an interesting one. Twice the population but they bring in 8 x the revenue. Not a wealthy country either. Belgium also bring in 3 times the revenue from only 2 times the population.

Not sure what you can read into the numbers other than perhaps Scotland is not the football hotbed we perhaps thought. The teams are inevitably hamstrung by this though.

I wonder how many people in Portugal are happy to pay ££s per month to watch the Spanish league, or how many in Switzerland pay a fortune to watch French or German football? Sky has got Scottish customers over a barrel in terms of subscriptions, even more so now that they've won the rights back from BT for their half of the coverage. We're back to paying Sky a fortune for pretty crap coverage of our game just so they can throw the money at the English leagues and hand a relative pittance back. Until someone can solve that Scottish football will never get a decent TV deal.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I wonder how many people in Portugal are happy to pay ££s per month to watch the Spanish league, or how many in Switzerland pay a fortune to watch French or German football? Sky has got Scottish customers over a barrel in terms of subscriptions, even more so now that they've won the rights back from BT for their half of the coverage. We're back to paying Sky a fortune for pretty crap coverage of our game just so they can throw the money at the English leagues and hand a relative pittance back. Until someone can solve that Scottish football will never get a decent TV deal.

The tv revenue figures are for money going to those leagues, or individual teams in the case of Portugal, though. If people in Switzerland were watching the German leagues rather than their own then why would the broadcaster pay so much to that league? The money would go back to the German league for their rights, not the rights to the Swiss league.

Perhaps I have read the information incorrectly?

 

[NWJocko]

Wouldn’t say the French league is a big league.

Wouldn’t compare Bayern and Juventus with Celtic either. At least they’re being challenged unlike Celtic.

You're missing the point, nobody is comparing Celtic to Bayern or Juventus just pointing out that stronger leagues than in Scotland also are encountering periods of domination by 1 club. This is the inevitable end game since the game become such a slave to, and beneficiary of in some ways, money.

The patronising comments from EPL fans always amuse me. Nobody in Scotland compares the SPL to other European leagues favourably, just accept it for what it is and enjoy it for that. If they are happy to do so then not sure why it bothers fans of the self titled "Best league in the world"?