Scenario

[virtuocity]

This didn't occur but could have during today's round.

FC hits bad shot behind trees lining the entry of the green. Hits provisional ball.

On finding the first ball could you keep playing the provisional under stroke and distance or would you have to go back and hit the found ball again from where it was originally played?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This didn't occur but could have during today's round.

FC hits bad shot behind trees lining the entry of the green. Hits provisional ball.

On finding the first ball could you keep playing the provisional under stroke and distance or would you have to go back and hit the found ball again from where it was originally played?

Do you not have to play the original ball if found within the time and if it hasn't been declared lost

 

[fundy]

This didn't occur but could have during today's round.

FC hits bad shot behind trees lining the entry of the green. Hits provisional ball.

On finding the first ball could you keep playing the provisional under stroke and distance or would you have to go back and hit the found ball again from where it was originally played?

as soon as you find the first ball it is in play and the provisional is irrelevant and should be picked up (as cant be continued with)

 

[bladeplayer]

This didn't occur but could have during today's round.

FC hits bad shot behind trees lining the entry of the green. Hits provisional ball.

On finding the first ball could you keep playing the provisional under stroke and distance or would you have to go back and hit the found ball again from where it was originally played?

Nope mate once you find the original in play the prov is no longer valid ..

 

[pbrown7582]

The provisional is invalid you can go back and play another ball under unplayable status but cannot use the provisional under this rule.

 

[Foxholer]

Do you not have to play the original ball if found within the time and if it hasn't been declared lost

Declaring the ball lost? Over 50 years out of date!

@OP
As soon as you find the Original Ball, Provisional is out of play. Playing it would be playing a Wrong Ball. You can't use it as both a Provisional and a 'just in case the original is unplayable'!

 

[atticusfinch]

27-2c

[h=4]c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned[/h]If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

 

[chrisd]

Do you not have to play the original ball if found within the time and if it hasn't been declared lost

Just to clarify - you can only declare a ball lost if it clearly goes out of bounds or lost in a water hazard, otherwise a ball cannot be lost unless 5 minutes searching time has elapsed.

 

[fundy]

Just to clarify - you can only declare a ball lost if it clearly goes out of bounds or lost in a water hazard, otherwise a ball cannot be lost unless 5 minutes searching time has elapsed.

rules wise thats true, but you can make it lost by hitting the provisional again inside the 5 mins

 

[Foxholer]

Just to clarify - you can only declare a ball lost if it clearly goes out of bounds or lost in a water hazard, otherwise a ball cannot be lost unless 5 minutes searching time has elapsed.

In fact, click on the italicised 'lost' in the post above yours and you will see all the reasons - none of which mention 'declare'! A ball in play either IS lost or is DEEMED lost.

 

[Colin L]

Careful, folks. We're beginning to get a bit inaccurate here. Sometimes we can forget about the importance of the Definitions in understanding the Rules. In this case the 5 ways in which a ball can be "lost" are clearly defined in that section. Here's what the Definition of a lost ball has to say. A ball is "lost" if

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his
or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

 

[atticusfinch]

27/16

Ball Declared Lost Is Found Before Another Ball Put into Play

Q.A player searched for his ball for two minutes, declared it lost and started back to play another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. Before he put another ball into play, his original ball was found within the five-minute period allowed for search. What is the ruling?

A.A player cannot render a ball lost by a declaration – see Definition of "Lost Ball." The original ball remained in play – see Definition of "Ball in Play."


"Declare" and "deem" are used interchangibly because they seem to conote the same thing. But a declaration is made by a person about the status of something, whereas something is deemed because certain facts have occurred. Deemed means something is treated as if it had certain characteristics that it does not in fact have. If the right conditions exist you can be holding your ball in your hand, but it is deemed lost because one of the factors in the rule has occurred. Declaring is making a statement about the nature of something. I declare this ball unplayable. That statement alone makes it unplayable. "That ball is lost" is not true until one of the events happens that make it that way. :sbox:

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

In a game I while back I hit my (second) shot at the green high into trees with dense undergrowth.
I played a provisional and hit the green for four, but three as I was allowed a stroke under handicap so was in a good position as my two FC's hadn't reached with their second shots.
They immediately marched into the undergrowth and after a while found my ball in a pretty ugly position.
Was I obliged to go look for it or could I have "declared/deemed" it lost before playing the provisional?
Some members have told me it's "my call", others say I have to search.

 

[CMAC]

In a game I while back I hit my (second) shot at the green high into trees with dense undergrowth.
I played a provisional and hit the green for four, but three as I was allowed a stroke under handicap so was in a good position as my two FC's hadn't reached with their second shots.
They immediately marched into the undergrowth and after a while found my ball in a pretty ugly position.
Was I obliged to go look for it or could I have "declared/deemed" it lost before playing the provisional?
Some members have told me it's "my call", others say I have to search.

I understand no-one is obliged to look for it- however if it is found by anyone within the 5 mins it's the ball back in play.

you cant declare as per other posts, but if no-one looks and you all carry on I cant see any breach there, you're the one being penalised S&D

so the members are all wrong:ears:

 

[duncan mackie]

In a game I while back I hit my (second) shot at the green high into trees with dense undergrowth.
I played a provisional and hit the green for four, but three as I was allowed a stroke under handicap so was in a good position as my two FC's hadn't reached with their second shots.
They immediately marched into the undergrowth and after a while found my ball in a pretty ugly position.
Was I obliged to go look for it or could I have "declared/deemed" it lost before playing the provisional?
Some members have told me it's "my call", others say I have to search.

much as CMAC has referenced but the key is as already stated earlier in the thread - you provisional is exactly that until the various circumstances set out occur/elapse etc

in this case you were entitled to decide not to search for your original; if your FC's decide that you were pushing the boundaries of etiquette by calling 'provisional' until you had hit the green with it then it's a straight race between you playing another shot with your provisional and them finding your original ball!

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

much as CMAC has referenced but the key is as already stated earlier in the thread - you provisional is exactly that until the various circumstances set out occur/elapse etc

in this case you were entitled to decide not to search for your original; if your FC's decide that you were pushing the boundaries of etiquette by calling 'provisional' until you had hit the green with it then it's a straight race between you playing another shot with your provisional and them finding your original ball!

First of all, thank you both.
Sadly, I'm still unsure.
I declared a provisional, hit it and then they set off to find my ball
Should I have stated I didn't want to search?
If A hits a ball well into deep undergrowth can A say "I'm not going to look for that" and just take the penalty or does A's opponent have a right to try and find it?

 

[Foxholer]

First of all, thank you both.
Sadly, I'm still unsure.
I declared a provisional, hit it and then they set off to find my ball
Should I have stated I didn't want to search?
If A hits a ball well into deep undergrowth can A say "I'm not going to look for that" and just take the penalty or does A's opponent have a right to try and find it?

You were not obliged to look for your ball - I believe that was the 'your call' that some members stated.

Your FCs/Opponents were/are quite entitled to look for it.

Having found it before you have made another Stroke with the Provisional, you must play the original ball and the Provisional ball ceases to have any status - and would be a 'Wrong Ball' if played.

Saying 'I'm not going to look for that' is equivalent to 'declaring a ball lost' and has no meaning from a Rules point of view. It's events that are important. 'A' can say what he likes, but his opponent has the right to try and find it. 'A' can stop the search by playing the Provisional such that it is (deemed) lost - as per the Definition.

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

Ah.
So, etiquette aside, whilst they entered the undergrowth, if I'd gone to the green and putted, my original ball is no longer in play?
In actual fact I followed them and groaned when it was found

 

[duncan mackie]

First of all, thank you both.
Sadly, I'm still unsure.
I declared a provisional, hit it and then they set off to find my ball
Should I have stated I didn't want to search?
If A hits a ball well into deep undergrowth can A say "I'm not going to look for that" and just take the penalty or does A's opponent have a right to try and find it?

What is it specifically you are unsure on?

Once you have declared a provisional ball and made a stroke at it, it's irrelevant what you say, state, declare, shout in relation to your first ball - only actions or elapsed time are relevant.

You don't have to look for anything, your FCs (or opponents as Foxy adds) are perfectly entitled to look for it.

 

[duncan mackie]

Ah.
So, etiquette aside, whilst they entered the undergrowth, if I'd gone to the green and putted, my original ball is no longer in play?

Yes.